3rd party independant tear down results of a failed VQ motor.
#376
10-31-2008, 12:31 PM
Originally Posted by KPierson
If you have no legal contract what are you tring to acomplish by "threatening" legal action? Even if GTM is 1000% responsible for the issue your customer is having if there is no binding warranty contract you are left to foot the bill for YOUR mistake for providing products from a source that isn't willing to put their warranty in writing.
As a last resort calling them out in a public forum definately will put some pressure on them to "make things right" but publically threatening legal action when there is no contract is laughable.
At the end of the day it sounds like the customer paid MRC for services rendered. The customer, therefore, would expect MRC to provide them with a working, performing car. If MRC decided to pay another company for a motor and that motor failed I would expect MRC to make it right. Now, of course, if I were a customer and I paid GTM for a motor I would expect GTM to make it right.
I guess, what I'm trying to say here again is that this is a business to business transaction - not a business to individual sale. As a business owner you really should stand behind the products you push, instead of calling out the company that provides you with the products that allow you to maximize your profits.
As a last resort calling them out in a public forum definately will put some pressure on them to "make things right" but publically threatening legal action when there is no contract is laughable.
At the end of the day it sounds like the customer paid MRC for services rendered. The customer, therefore, would expect MRC to provide them with a working, performing car. If MRC decided to pay another company for a motor and that motor failed I would expect MRC to make it right. Now, of course, if I were a customer and I paid GTM for a motor I would expect GTM to make it right.
I guess, what I'm trying to say here again is that this is a business to business transaction - not a business to individual sale. As a business owner you really should stand behind the products you push, instead of calling out the company that provides you with the products that allow you to maximize your profits.
You do not know the details of how the customer approached MRC about his motor build. What if the customer requested that the GTM engine be put in his car? The same thing applies if you goto a shop and you have that shop install a 3rd party turbo kit. I wouldnt assume that GTM wouldnt be legally responsibly for poor craftsmanship.
There are plenty of product liability law suits out there because companies choose to cut corners and sell defective products. Not saying that GTM cut corners in any way, just using this as an example.
#377
10-31-2008, 12:44 PM
from my350z
i'm not concerned about MRC or GTM .. i have no bias or problems with either one..
what i am concerned about is Rome.. you guys are trying to indicate that Rome could have avoided problems if he went to 1 place to do all his work.. and in fact he did.. he wanted a turbo kit with a built motor and other goodies... he went to 1 shop.. MRC .. its really not Rome's fault if something breaks in the proccess .. he can only go to 1 place.. My Motor and Rome's motor were ordered at the same time.. so i can tell you for a FACT Rome didn't say what motor he wanted.. it was a whole package deal.. so i guess if the Boost Controller Breaks, Clutch Breaks, Motor Breaks and Turbo Kit breaks Rome is suppose to call HKS, Clutchmasters, GTM and Greddy?
come on guys.. get real
what i am concerned about is Rome.. you guys are trying to indicate that Rome could have avoided problems if he went to 1 place to do all his work.. and in fact he did.. he wanted a turbo kit with a built motor and other goodies... he went to 1 shop.. MRC .. its really not Rome's fault if something breaks in the proccess .. he can only go to 1 place.. My Motor and Rome's motor were ordered at the same time.. so i can tell you for a FACT Rome didn't say what motor he wanted.. it was a whole package deal.. so i guess if the Boost Controller Breaks, Clutch Breaks, Motor Breaks and Turbo Kit breaks Rome is suppose to call HKS, Clutchmasters, GTM and Greddy?
come on guys.. get real
#378
10-31-2008, 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by Speqz
You do not know the details of how the customer approached MRC about his motor build. What if the customer requested that the GTM engine be put in his car? The same thing applies if you goto a shop and you have that shop install a 3rd party turbo kit. I wouldnt assume that GTM wouldnt be legally responsibly for poor craftsmanship.
But....
Originally Posted by Julian
The motor was purchased from a reputable engine builder, and was our 5th motor out of 6 ordered from them that had issues
A warranty is a warranty. If you buy something with no warranty and it breaks would you sue the person who made it? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it is an impractical way to think.
Product Liability n. the responsibility of manufacturers, distributors and sellers of products to the public, to deliver products free of defects which harm an individual or numerous persons and to make good on that responsibility if their products are defective. (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...duct+liability)
Although GTM may have provided a faulty product the motor did NOT harm an individual or numerous persons. Therefore, the chances of winning a product liability suit are slim. Keep in mind I'm not a lawyer, but according to the definition above MRC (seller / distributor) would be JUST AS LIABLE as GTM (manufacturer) for the sale of the motor to Rome, since Rome paid MRC for the motor!
#379
10-31-2008, 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by KPierson
This shows that MRC ordered SIX motors from GTM (the number later turned out to be 5 if I remember correctly). Before you order five plus $10,000+ motors you better be ready to stand behind the motors!
#380
11-01-2008, 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by KPierson
I agree with you on this 100%. If the customer brought the part then the shop wouldn't be expected to stand behind it.
But....
This shows that MRC ordered SIX motors from GTM (the number later turned out to be 5 if I remember correctly). Before you order five plus $10,000+ motors you better be ready to stand behind the motors!
A warranty is a warranty. If you buy something with no warranty and it breaks would you sue the person who made it? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it is an impractical way to think.
Product Liability n. the responsibility of manufacturers, distributors and sellers of products to the public, to deliver products free of defects which harm an individual or numerous persons and to make good on that responsibility if their products are defective. (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...duct+liability)
Although GTM may have provided a faulty product the motor did NOT harm an individual or numerous persons. Therefore, the chances of winning a product liability suit are slim. Keep in mind I'm not a lawyer, but according to the definition above MRC (seller / distributor) would be JUST AS LIABLE as GTM (manufacturer) for the sale of the motor to Rome, since Rome paid MRC for the motor!
But....
This shows that MRC ordered SIX motors from GTM (the number later turned out to be 5 if I remember correctly). Before you order five plus $10,000+ motors you better be ready to stand behind the motors!
A warranty is a warranty. If you buy something with no warranty and it breaks would you sue the person who made it? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it is an impractical way to think.
Product Liability n. the responsibility of manufacturers, distributors and sellers of products to the public, to deliver products free of defects which harm an individual or numerous persons and to make good on that responsibility if their products are defective. (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...duct+liability)
Although GTM may have provided a faulty product the motor did NOT harm an individual or numerous persons. Therefore, the chances of winning a product liability suit are slim. Keep in mind I'm not a lawyer, but according to the definition above MRC (seller / distributor) would be JUST AS LIABLE as GTM (manufacturer) for the sale of the motor to Rome, since Rome paid MRC for the motor!
I will reply to your posts, since you continually like to take shots at me since our falling out several months back. I know this thread was what you have been waiting for to attack me and my credibility and your posts have all been directed at me, and standing behind the products we carry or used to carry.
I will clarify, we have had 6 motors shipped to us from GTM in the past year and a half. One motor failed, but was the customers fault, since he it a belgum block in the road ripping off his oil pan. That customer replaced his motor with a GTM motor, and currently I am unaware of the condition of it. Perhaps he might feel the need to chime in and update us.
That leaves 5 motors. 3 had issues, one of them twice and was counted twice within that 5. So technically it is 3 out of 4 actually.
Prior to purchasing our motors from GTM we built them locally with an engine builder. We did about 8-10 of those motors since 2003. One of them had a pretty bad oil leak, and we fixed it for free. None of them to date have come back with any issues.
One of these motors GTM had the pleasure of tearing down at their facility, After bieng tuned by STS in Utah. Aside from the motor looking lie the customer had not regularly changed the oil, Sam reported no issues with the motor that would have been defects on our end. This motor was Jimmy, aka Paranormal.
You simply love taking shots at me, however we have spoken to our customers, and are standing behind out work and what we sold them. We are taking care of the issues, even if it means bankrupting ourselves in the process.
This thread went the wrong direction, but some good came out of it. In fact ask yourself this:
Would GTM have warrantied Romey's cams if it were not for this thread? IMPO they already sold him new ones and had ZERO intention of warrantying them if Romey had not done a charge back following this thread.
I just think the threat of bad press, was the only way to get GTM to stand behind anything.
Do you honestly think your post will make ME look worse? Or make GTM look like they avoid any form of cuplability by calling everyone Amatures and telling them they dont know what they are doing?
Cause I guess that means other shops that had issues with GTM motors also dont know what they are doing also..
GTM has the luxery of shipping motors across the world, then when something goes wrong, making a million and one excuses as to what it could be besides their lack of quality control.We do not have that luxery, and are stuck footing the bill on fixing their issues, while GTM continues to rake in the $$$$$$ selling customers with failed sleeves, headgasekets, ect..New motors with "upgraded parts".
Kevin, your personal agenda against me is clearly obvious to those that know the "history" between you and I. And I never wish this type of business crushing failure on you or anyone. But until you experience a similar situation, we will see how YOU react when loosing thousands and thousands of dollars fixing issues you do not feel were 100% yours..I can assure you that you will cry a river and lay blame elsewhere also.
On a side note..Ever notice a pattern of the really big and successful businesses, how they NEVER EVER admit any wrongdoing or cuplability? And this applies in ALL business realms, not just ours.
Last edited by Julian; 11-01-2008 at 04:37 PM.
#381
11-01-2008, 06:57 PM
Julian,
I think you are letting our past interactions influence the way you read my posts.
I think you did a great job helping your customers out offering free/discounted labor. You obviously are standing behind the products you sell because you went to bat for Rome.
Do I agree with everything you say or how you did it? No. But I'm not taking shots at you or trying to make this mess seem like it is 100% your fault, because it obviously isn't. What's happened in the past is in the past and I'm way over it - I hold no grudge against you or your shop.
To be honest I really hope you don't close your doors - doing so would be a diservice to the Z/G community.
I think you are letting our past interactions influence the way you read my posts.
I think you did a great job helping your customers out offering free/discounted labor. You obviously are standing behind the products you sell because you went to bat for Rome.
Do I agree with everything you say or how you did it? No. But I'm not taking shots at you or trying to make this mess seem like it is 100% your fault, because it obviously isn't. What's happened in the past is in the past and I'm way over it - I hold no grudge against you or your shop.
To be honest I really hope you don't close your doors - doing so would be a diservice to the Z/G community.
#382
11-02-2008, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Julian
Kevin,
I will reply to your posts, since you continually like to take shots at me since our falling out several months back. I know this thread was what you have been waiting for to attack me and my credibility and your posts have all been directed at me, and standing behind the products we carry or used to carry.
I will clarify, we have had 6 motors shipped to us from GTM in the past year and a half. One motor failed, but was the customers fault, since he it a belgum block in the road ripping off his oil pan. That customer replaced his motor with a GTM motor, and currently I am unaware of the condition of it. Perhaps he might feel the need to chime in and update us.
That leaves 5 motors. 3 had issues, one of them twice and was counted twice within that 5. So technically it is 3 out of 4 actually.
Prior to purchasing our motors from GTM we built them locally with an engine builder. We did about 8-10 of those motors since 2003. One of them had a pretty bad oil leak, and we fixed it for free. None of them to date have come back with any issues.
One of these motors GTM had the pleasure of tearing down at their facility, After bieng tuned by STS in Utah. Aside from the motor looking lie the customer had not regularly changed the oil, Sam reported no issues with the motor that would have been defects on our end. This motor was Jimmy, aka Paranormal.
You simply love taking shots at me, however we have spoken to our customers, and are standing behind out work and what we sold them. We are taking care of the issues, even if it means bankrupting ourselves in the process.
This thread went the wrong direction, but some good came out of it. In fact ask yourself this:
Would GTM have warrantied Romey's cams if it were not for this thread? IMPO they already sold him new ones and had ZERO intention of warrantying them if Romey had not done a charge back following this thread.
I just think the threat of bad press, was the only way to get GTM to stand behind anything.
Do you honestly think your post will make ME look worse? Or make GTM look like they avoid any form of cuplability by calling everyone Amatures and telling them they dont know what they are doing?
Cause I guess that means other shops that had issues with GTM motors also dont know what they are doing also..
GTM has the luxery of shipping motors across the world, then when something goes wrong, making a million and one excuses as to what it could be besides their lack of quality control.We do not have that luxery, and are stuck footing the bill on fixing their issues, while GTM continues to rake in the $$$$$$ selling customers with failed sleeves, headgasekets, ect..New motors with "upgraded parts".
Kevin, your personal agenda against me is clearly obvious to those that know the "history" between you and I. And I never wish this type of business crushing failure on you or anyone. But until you experience a similar situation, we will see how YOU react when loosing thousands and thousands of dollars fixing issues you do not feel were 100% yours..I can assure you that you will cry a river and lay blame elsewhere also.
On a side note..Ever notice a pattern of the really big and successful businesses, how they NEVER EVER admit any wrongdoing or cuplability? And this applies in ALL business realms, not just ours.
I will reply to your posts, since you continually like to take shots at me since our falling out several months back. I know this thread was what you have been waiting for to attack me and my credibility and your posts have all been directed at me, and standing behind the products we carry or used to carry.
I will clarify, we have had 6 motors shipped to us from GTM in the past year and a half. One motor failed, but was the customers fault, since he it a belgum block in the road ripping off his oil pan. That customer replaced his motor with a GTM motor, and currently I am unaware of the condition of it. Perhaps he might feel the need to chime in and update us.
That leaves 5 motors. 3 had issues, one of them twice and was counted twice within that 5. So technically it is 3 out of 4 actually.
Prior to purchasing our motors from GTM we built them locally with an engine builder. We did about 8-10 of those motors since 2003. One of them had a pretty bad oil leak, and we fixed it for free. None of them to date have come back with any issues.
One of these motors GTM had the pleasure of tearing down at their facility, After bieng tuned by STS in Utah. Aside from the motor looking lie the customer had not regularly changed the oil, Sam reported no issues with the motor that would have been defects on our end. This motor was Jimmy, aka Paranormal.
You simply love taking shots at me, however we have spoken to our customers, and are standing behind out work and what we sold them. We are taking care of the issues, even if it means bankrupting ourselves in the process.
This thread went the wrong direction, but some good came out of it. In fact ask yourself this:
Would GTM have warrantied Romey's cams if it were not for this thread? IMPO they already sold him new ones and had ZERO intention of warrantying them if Romey had not done a charge back following this thread.
I just think the threat of bad press, was the only way to get GTM to stand behind anything.
Do you honestly think your post will make ME look worse? Or make GTM look like they avoid any form of cuplability by calling everyone Amatures and telling them they dont know what they are doing?
Cause I guess that means other shops that had issues with GTM motors also dont know what they are doing also..
GTM has the luxery of shipping motors across the world, then when something goes wrong, making a million and one excuses as to what it could be besides their lack of quality control.We do not have that luxery, and are stuck footing the bill on fixing their issues, while GTM continues to rake in the $$$$$$ selling customers with failed sleeves, headgasekets, ect..New motors with "upgraded parts".
Kevin, your personal agenda against me is clearly obvious to those that know the "history" between you and I. And I never wish this type of business crushing failure on you or anyone. But until you experience a similar situation, we will see how YOU react when loosing thousands and thousands of dollars fixing issues you do not feel were 100% yours..I can assure you that you will cry a river and lay blame elsewhere also.
On a side note..Ever notice a pattern of the really big and successful businesses, how they NEVER EVER admit any wrongdoing or cuplability? And this applies in ALL business realms, not just ours.
#383
11-02-2008, 11:53 AM
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6MT Coupe
Originally Posted by JAMEZ@CiNcity
What sucks about all of this is in the end is that the customer really loses. Hopefully the appropriate party steps up and gets this guy back on the road.
"I have been without a car for almost 6 months now and this process is a very trying and tough one. Thats all i will say for now thank you"
All this finger pointing disgusts me at the true expense of the customer. The shops involved should get that customer back on the road and then deal with who's at fault between them, legally arbitrated or not.
#385
11-02-2008, 06:40 PM
Yes Sam has responded. I don't know the details regarding his transaction with Julian & Rome at this point, but that is not my place to know. All I can say is that Sam is a standup guy from PERSONAL experience and I believe he will take care of Rome.
#386
11-02-2008, 08:04 PM
Originally Posted by Dynasty.Zero
Yes Sam has responded. I don't know the details regarding his transaction with Julian & Rome at this point, but that is not my place to know. All I can say is that Sam is a standup guy from PERSONAL experience and I believe he will take care of Rome.
#387
11-02-2008, 09:31 PM
if either GTM, MRC or the person involved would like this thread re-opened to provide updates, pleae PM me.
otherwise I don't see a reason for this thread to stay open.
thank you
otherwise I don't see a reason for this thread to stay open.
thank you
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