I dunno of and DIY's it REALLY easy to do. I took a LONG drill bit and from the bay drilled through the fairing.

 

i'm getting a feeling this is no longer on topic. anyone know of a date of the tuner kit release?

 

As a matter of interest, what in his opinion is over designed in the APS twin turbo system?

James

 

You'd have to ask Eric at CP Racing to get that answer.

The information I did get about the APS TT kit was this... the guy who bought the kit paid ~$11,000 to get kit and have it installed and he ended up with 350rwhp on 93 octane (don't know the torque #'s). Since there aren't many tuners who want to pay $6,000 for the Unichip tuning S/W and fly out for a class... well, let's just say the poor guy is stuck with 350rwhp whether he's happy with it or not.

 

I think I already know the answer to that, these are the same guys that wanted $70k of APS turbo system product on credit (credit was not extended to CP) now I know why the APS twin turbo system is so over designed.

The customers tuning is real easy to solve, all the guy needs to do is to provide the afr and boost graphs and his computer to Tuan at GRD in Chicago and he will be making 400+ WHP in no time at all.

James

 

Mail order tuning is NOT my cup of tea. Thanks anyway but if I wanted to do that I would just go with the TN ST kit for less money and roll the dice with TS.

BTW, your comments were very 'APS' like and expected. Just one more reason why I didn't buy your kit...

 

I just find it very interesting that a shop person would make a comment like the twin turbo system is so over designed though wanted to purchase around 10 APS twin turbo systems for customers.

And yes my comments were very ''APS like'' direct and straight to the point, have a good day my friend.

James

 

So I can ship my Unicheap to Tuan and he can program it without me or my car being there?

That seems like something Peter would frown upon.

Peter always advised that the ONLY way to safely tune the APS system is on a load based dyno with a certified Unicheap dealer. Has APS changed their stance on this?

To me, as I've always said, leaves me with a piggyback that is as programmable as my Crawford Cast Plenum.

One of these days I'll make the trek to Chicago to have the thing tuned, AND have the junk wastegates replaced. Of course I'm still waiting to hear back from Peter on model numbers/ordering info for the upgraded wastegates.

 

NOS 100 Shot is BEST Bang for the $ Just Ask DR CHARLES Madrid!

 

That's real classy James. Post about business dealings between you and another company on the internet, reguardless of the outcome. FYI - Saying it was overdesigned was a compliment. APS - Absolute Pieces of S***. No wonder Peter was banned. I think you guys make a great product but coming on an internet forum and bashing another company = lame. I don't represent myself as a company so this flaming doesn't have nearly the consequences.

 

...or arrogant, condescending and not altogether very helpful. It only took you 5 threads to get exactly back to where Peter left off... You too have a good day.

 

If this is in fact what he said, it's gotta be one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

What the f^*( is the deal with all these APS bashers. At first people like (you know who) will just pick at the dumbest things under the sun to say about the APS' kit to promote TN, and when they get a meaningful response in a discussion they will jsut pretent to not hear it. And now this? THis has got to be THE DUMBEST F(*&ING thing I have ever heard. [Excuse the language... I am not really known for being THIS direct... but things like this are one of my pet peeves. ]They like it but it's "overengineered", and a PIA to install? Wow...incredible and incredibly stupid that's all I gotta say.

Have you not heard the horror stories of Greddy installs, where there truly were/are lots of fitment and quality issues. Is Greddy good enough? Yes, is TN good enough, probably yes. Being overengineered is THE name of the game... I am not a design engineer like you (and I didn't know this until now), but even I know this. Every car company OVERENGINEERS their cars...I am sure you wouldn't contest this, as ths is true for a good and obvious set of reasons. Would you really be comfortable with beating on your G35 if the rods were only designed for 315 lb'ft of torque, or only 6700 rpm? The answer to this question and a million others is obvious. And saying like it's a bad thing... if I had heard this from this guy whose word you take as gospel, I would buy the APS kit right there and then. And IF in fact the installation is harder (although the kit comes with simply unrivaled instructions), it may very well be related to the fact that it's properly engineered...any one of the APS bashers ever thought of this one?

From the results of the work (i.e. the PRODUCT brought to market), APS in my opinion is the hardest working company on the market... again, IMO! Also, IMO, they have the best product. If it more expensive, yes, but it's also, I'd vigorously argue, a VERY great value for what you get at the end.

The problem is not APS' products... it's that the people nitpick at things OTHER than the design of the kit as a means to make themselves feel better about a choice that they already made, or one that they have their heart set on making anyway. Just like people who realize that they don't like the car that they purchased on a whim, rationalize their decision by things like "but I got a good deal on the car". There are several people on these forums that are absolutely honest and logical about these things, however, unlike the ones I am referring to in my previosu sentence.

Anyway...I have to run... I've answered one of the very first posts in this thread without reading the rest... hopefully I will get that chance later. I just couldn't keep on reading without responding to the original comment.

P.S.
In a digression, I'd say the following: don't take anyone's word as 'gospel', that's just my own piece of advise, from someone who hasn't sat on the sidelines for as long as possible and wait for others to be the pioneers. Listen to as much advise as possible and do your own research. And if you ever going to take anyone's advice as gospel, let it be someone who is more than an installer but a REAL engineer with a sound knowledge of theory (e.g. not which turbo is better, but why..complete with as much scientific data/support as possible).

 

Gurgen, since you quoted me before you went on your rant/tirade I'll respond directly to you...

Respectfully, I have not been an APS BASHER as you alluded to in your previous post but I am quickly becoming one (the more I type actually). In fact, I've gone on record, do a search if you must, and advised people AGAINST buying the TN ST for two big reasons.

1. The reflash - mail order tuning is an awful approach with FI IMO. Kevin Pierson tried this approach initially and he blew an engine (or lost compression which is the same thing to me).

2. The fact that there has not been enough history with this kit on the VQ

Back to the APS kit: For the record no one ever said that the APS Kit was over engineered the kit was said to be over designed. HUGE DIFFERENCE!!! An over designed kit is just that; added design time, unnecessary manufacturing costs, increased part count, increased installation time and an end result of wasted money for the consumer for a kit that has more features than needed to perform similarly if designed more simplistically. I have a friend on the Porsche GT Racing team and he is always saying that Porsche's are over designed. Does this mean Porsche's are bad? NO. Does it mean that you pay WAY MORE THAN THEY'RE WORTH? Yes. Same applies in the analogy I was given about the APS TT. No one ever said the kits were bad, just that you pay through the nose for them and could end up with 350rwhp!

I also have several friends in the WRX-STI world who have been lied to by APS. One example from a name you might be familiar with is Esemes (Scott). He bought 2 APS kits, only to have one bought back from him after APS lied about the power output potentials of their kit. Imagine how happy he was to have to buy 2 kits, dyno them, install and remove them, etc...

Does this sound familiar... APS misrepresenting their kits power output capabilities? Kevin Pierson would probably agree. Esemes would probably agree. A few others on my350z.com would probably agree as well.

Bottom line, the guy who made this statement (Eric) in the initial thread works side by side with Sharif of Forged Internals tuning all of the E-manage cars that go through CP Racing. He also tunes all of the Split Second kits with the Vortechs. Eric and Sharif are good friends and roommates and they both know a thing or two about the VQ and FI. When I asked a simple question from the manager of the store who is #5 Vortech distributor in the US, I expected to hear "buy a Vortech" and was surprised to hear what I did so I decided to share what I was told with everyone else.

The title of this thread is not "Neffster’s opinion about FI"... I tried to make that very clear from the beginning. "My opinion" on FI is that people should buy a Vortech kit, like I did and be happy with that. Then again, I'm super conservative and can hardly believe I actually went FI on this car.

One more side note. I feel that James disclosing personal and private business matters about a companies potential business dealings with APS is very unprofessional (or weak). Very APS like from the threads I've read.

 

Since my name was mentioned several times I guess I'll speak my mind on this issue.

Mail order tuning is FINE as long as you are fine with VERY conservative tuning, and low overall performance numbers. When you try to push the envelope and squeeze extra hp out of a FI system through mail order tuning expect disasterous results. There is just too much variance from vq35 to vq35.

I was very excited about installing my APS TT on my forged motor. But, along the way I started hearing more and more negative things about APS. I was expecting really good numbers, but I will NOT have them. APS system IS over designed. I can't think of any other company that goes through the hassles that APS has gone through to make a product 'safe.' First, they include the 'Unicheap.' A product that 95% of its customers can't convienently do anything with. When I brought this up to Peter his response was "its not a big deal, just drive the 500 miles to Chicago." That would be fine IF I didn't have a job, my own company, a girl friend, a house I'm building, a car I'm building, etc. I simply don't have the time or availibility to "JUST" drive to Chicago to have this thing tuned. My other option is to rip out the Unicheap and install a Gretty EU. Of course this will raise the costs of an already super expensive project, and the resale value of an unprogrammable Unicheap has got to be low.

Second, they include actuators that WILL not hold enough boost to blow a motor! This may be great from a statistical point of view (no blown motors), but it will only make installion on built motors more troublesome.

I made my intentions to Peter clear that I would be building a motor and looking for high horsepower. He told me the APS TT was perfect for me.

I think an APS 'tuner' kit would have been more for me! There was NEVER any mention of the low boost capacity. Now, I have the system installed and I will have to PAY someone to remove the turbos, swap the wastegates, and reinstall the turbos! Its hard to say I'm a satisfied APS customer. Peter has several times stated on these boards that the APS TT is capable of 800 crank horsepower IF a fuel system is implemented.

Although I have never seen the compressor maps (another sore spot) I believe the turbos are capable, but ONLY IF I 1. upgrade the stock wastegates 2. upgrade the fuel system 3. drive over 1,000 miles to have it tuned/buy and install an Emanage Ultimate

In my honest opinion I believe that APS involvement on these boards has only HURT their reputation. I believe they have offered information that will help sales, but may not entirely be true.

The quality of their product is GREAT. Fitment was ok (I have a G35, so I guess I can't complain!). I love the ball bearing turbos, I love the blow off valve, and I love the FMIC. However, I am very disapointed with APS's online representation. I believe APS's involvement on these boards is ONLY to promote their own products, not to educate or help out non customers. Factor in their refusal to pay promotional fees and they are left looking like a greedy, dishonest corporation.

All that being said, by next weekend I should have my motor completely broken in and ready to dyno. I am expection 425 whp. My baseline was 233 whp. This works out to about $130 per horse power gained. Not the most cost effective solution, to say the least.

 

I guess it was a rant, but not one that was not warranted (it would probably still be better for me to not write anything when I was upset (not jsut by your quote, but other things as well at the time). But... I am not making excuses. Believe it or not, what you said mostly compounded the other negative and untrue things said about APS, and in combination it unfairly misrepresents their work.

I know this. I was not indicting what you were saying, neff, but, in this case, what I guess Eric was, in combination with the TN-huggers on this board.

Well, the way I was approaching the question, I DID mean over-designed (in this case this is just poor word choice on my part).

Can you give me an example of a part that you would prefer not to have on the APS kit, one that is helps constitute it is overdesigned? I cannot think of a single piece that doesn't simply increase it's functionality.

The reason that they are expensive is not because the are overdesigned, but because they are half-hand-built and because they bear the "Porsche" badge.

Sharif is a very good friend of mine, and we agree much more often than we disagree on things. He has experienced a lot with the VQ and FI over the last couple of years, and has certainly learned a huge wealth of knowledge about it, i'd say much more than I did. I get his opinion about things all the time when I am working on any given aspect of my car.
I know that this was not your opinion (this htread that is), it's just that , as I said, it sounded to have a negative connotation. What went off in my head is "ok..now they are saying that the APS is bad because it's overdesigned?!", it's just a pet-peeve of mine.

You did make it clear, and as you can see above I was NOT indicting what you said or attacking you, NEff. You were basically the messenger, I get that. I was not trying to bad-mouth Eric personally (I don't know the guy)... now that I know who he is and because of his closeness with Sharif I would probably not say it as I did, just out of respect for Sharif (being truthful). Still..... saying that a kit is overdesigned and it's a bad thing is STILL pretty silly.