Double Clutch?
#31
08-22-2006, 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by SeZkI
black bird ur making urself like an idiot when your wrong, ive been in a car with someone actualy pressing the clutch again for no longer then .1 of a second and gained a lil extra push. as binpimpin said it affects some cars for the benifit but not neccasarily the g35, but i think it helps the g35 or at least it feels like it.
#32
08-22-2006, 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by partyman66
When changing gears, push the clutch in once... then pop the car out of gear into neutral, then blip the gas so that your engine RPM's match the RPM's that the engine would be in once you put the car into the next gear that you are shifting to, then put the car into that gear and let the clutch up.
Here is an example and the scenario is as follows:
You are driving with car in 2nd gear and car at 3500 RPM and decide you want to shift up to 3rd gear
1) Push the clutch in and let off the gas at the same time
2) Once the clutch is fully disengaged(clutch pedal is to the floor), shift the car into neutral
3) Allow a few brief moments for the engines RPM's to fall close to about 2500 RPM's(2500 RPM's is specific only to this situation) since that's about where your car would be at if it was in 3rd gear at the current speed.
4) Once the RPM's have dropped to the appropriate level(2500 in this case), blip the throttle a bit so that the RPM's stay at that level and don't continue to drop
5) Push the clutch in and then shift the car into 3rd gear with your foot still on the gas just enough to keep it at the desired RPM's
6) Let the clutch out
The whole point is to try to reduce wear and tear on your synchros as you're shifting into gear by making sure that your RPM's are as close to the speed of the transmission as you're putting the vehicle into the next gear and it also prevents unnecessary wear on your clutches throwout bearing by you holding the clutch down for a few extra moments in between each shift to wait for the RPM's to drop to the desired level. It should also make your shifting a bit smoother if you are good at rev matching(car won't buck as much between shifts).
Hope that explanation wasn't too confusing.
Here is an example and the scenario is as follows:
You are driving with car in 2nd gear and car at 3500 RPM and decide you want to shift up to 3rd gear
1) Push the clutch in and let off the gas at the same time
2) Once the clutch is fully disengaged(clutch pedal is to the floor), shift the car into neutral
3) Allow a few brief moments for the engines RPM's to fall close to about 2500 RPM's(2500 RPM's is specific only to this situation) since that's about where your car would be at if it was in 3rd gear at the current speed.
4) Once the RPM's have dropped to the appropriate level(2500 in this case), blip the throttle a bit so that the RPM's stay at that level and don't continue to drop
5) Push the clutch in and then shift the car into 3rd gear with your foot still on the gas just enough to keep it at the desired RPM's
6) Let the clutch out
The whole point is to try to reduce wear and tear on your synchros as you're shifting into gear by making sure that your RPM's are as close to the speed of the transmission as you're putting the vehicle into the next gear and it also prevents unnecessary wear on your clutches throwout bearing by you holding the clutch down for a few extra moments in between each shift to wait for the RPM's to drop to the desired level. It should also make your shifting a bit smoother if you are good at rev matching(car won't buck as much between shifts).
Hope that explanation wasn't too confusing.
Try this; your in 6th gear just easing at 40MPH and a mustang GT pulls up and wants to go at it… You want 2nd gear so you hit clutch floor gas (while pulling out of 6th) and when the RPMs hit about 4000-5000, you pull down into 2nd. And let clutch out hard never letting off the gas… You go into 2nd. Gear when RPMs are high, you can’t do it without forcing it when the RPM’s are below 2000 from the 6th gear cruising speed you were at… All this should happen in the blink of an eye; Got that?
When upshifting, just press clutch down very far or all the way and go for it.
#33
08-22-2006, 04:57 PM
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/\ + 1
Why wait for it to drop and blip the gas so it stay there
when up shifting there is no need to do this. You only double clutch when downshifting to preserve the syncro especially when downshifting 2 gears down.
what he explained is double clutching (Almost) but the purpose is wrong, No need to double clutch when upshifting, only when down shifting especially 2+ gears down.
Heel-and-Toe is the same as Double-Clutching except when you heel-toe you're are applying breaks at the same time. that why your toe is applied on the breaks while your heel is pressing the gas to double clutch(or vise versa) while downshifting.
Originally Posted by partyman66
When changing gears, push the clutch in once... then pop the car out of gear into neutral, then blip the gas so that your engine RPM's match the RPM's that the engine would be in once you put the car into the next gear that you are shifting to, then put the car into that gear and let the clutch up.
Here is an example and the scenario is as follows:
You are driving with car in 2nd gear and car at 3500 RPM and decide you want to shift up to 3rd gear
1) Push the clutch in and let off the gas at the same time
2) Once the clutch is fully disengaged(clutch pedal is to the floor), shift the car into neutral
3) Allow a few brief moments for the engines RPM's to fall close to about 2500 RPM's(2500 RPM's is specific only to this situation) since that's about where your car would be at if it was in 3rd gear at the current speed.
4) Once the RPM's have dropped to the appropriate level(2500 in this case), blip the throttle a bit so that the RPM's stay at that level and don't continue to drop5) Push the clutch in and then shift the car into 3rd gear with your foot still on the gas just enough to keep it at the desired RPM's
6) Let the clutch out
Hope that explanation wasn't too confusing.
Here is an example and the scenario is as follows:
You are driving with car in 2nd gear and car at 3500 RPM and decide you want to shift up to 3rd gear
1) Push the clutch in and let off the gas at the same time
2) Once the clutch is fully disengaged(clutch pedal is to the floor), shift the car into neutral
3) Allow a few brief moments for the engines RPM's to fall close to about 2500 RPM's(2500 RPM's is specific only to this situation) since that's about where your car would be at if it was in 3rd gear at the current speed.
4) Once the RPM's have dropped to the appropriate level(2500 in this case), blip the throttle a bit so that the RPM's stay at that level and don't continue to drop5) Push the clutch in and then shift the car into 3rd gear with your foot still on the gas just enough to keep it at the desired RPM's
6) Let the clutch out
Hope that explanation wasn't too confusing.
Why wait for it to drop and blip the gas so it stay there
when up shifting there is no need to do this. You only double clutch when downshifting to preserve the syncro especially when downshifting 2 gears down.
Originally Posted by Imadriver
That is NOT double clutching!
Double clutching is exactly what the name implies: You depress and release the clutch pedal TWICE! Not once, as your description implied. What you described is commonly known as "Rev-matching" or "heel-and-toe" when done while braking.
Double clutching should not be performed on a G35 or any other modern car with a synchromesh gearbox. Rev-matching, on the other hand, helps to provide smooth shifts and works well with synchromesh gearboxes.
Double clutching is exactly what the name implies: You depress and release the clutch pedal TWICE! Not once, as your description implied. What you described is commonly known as "Rev-matching" or "heel-and-toe" when done while braking.
Double clutching should not be performed on a G35 or any other modern car with a synchromesh gearbox. Rev-matching, on the other hand, helps to provide smooth shifts and works well with synchromesh gearboxes.
Heel-and-Toe is the same as Double-Clutching except when you heel-toe you're are applying breaks at the same time. that why your toe is applied on the breaks while your heel is pressing the gas to double clutch(or vise versa) while downshifting.
Last edited by FI'ed G; 08-22-2006 at 05:02 PM.
#34
08-22-2006, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Binpimpin77
Im sorry, but all of you are wrong about double clutching...
Double clutching is a method used for racing (usually with slower cars) It has nothing to actually do with shifting!!...
Let's say your in 3rd gear around 3500rpm's...now you floor it... the rev's start picking up (obviously) 4000...4500...5000...and so on till redline...well if your in a bit of a slower car (i.e. LS integra, ex civic) your revs will only slowly pick up when your in later gears like 4th or 5th, unlike 2nd and 3rd that just pull through quickly...
So lets say your in 4th gear and punch it at 3500rpms this time...as your rev's are coming up (slowly however, were not in a G35) there taking forever, there just slowly hanging around 5k let's say (because were in this slow 4th gear of this LS integra) ...well you would then just blip the clutch real quick to cause the rev's to jump a bit higher...and then let off real quick (its just a real quick tap of the clutch..on/off and brings the revs up for a spilt second) soon as you come off the clutch the rev's will start to engage back to where they should be in the present gear and kinda act's like an extra launch technique some people use when racing from a roll... Some think it gives your car that little extra umpff and helps your car get to that redline quicker...However this will also help burn out a stock clutch real quick.
And does not need to be used in a G35 or any car that is some what already "quick"...If you do so in a fast car, you will just be slowing yourself down cause your wasting time engaging the clutch when the car could just be pulling in gear.
Double clutching is a method used for racing (usually with slower cars) It has nothing to actually do with shifting!!...
Let's say your in 3rd gear around 3500rpm's...now you floor it... the rev's start picking up (obviously) 4000...4500...5000...and so on till redline...well if your in a bit of a slower car (i.e. LS integra, ex civic) your revs will only slowly pick up when your in later gears like 4th or 5th, unlike 2nd and 3rd that just pull through quickly...
So lets say your in 4th gear and punch it at 3500rpms this time...as your rev's are coming up (slowly however, were not in a G35) there taking forever, there just slowly hanging around 5k let's say (because were in this slow 4th gear of this LS integra) ...well you would then just blip the clutch real quick to cause the rev's to jump a bit higher...and then let off real quick (its just a real quick tap of the clutch..on/off and brings the revs up for a spilt second) soon as you come off the clutch the rev's will start to engage back to where they should be in the present gear and kinda act's like an extra launch technique some people use when racing from a roll... Some think it gives your car that little extra umpff and helps your car get to that redline quicker...However this will also help burn out a stock clutch real quick.
And does not need to be used in a G35 or any car that is some what already "quick"...If you do so in a fast car, you will just be slowing yourself down cause your wasting time engaging the clutch when the car could just be pulling in gear.
Last edited by FI'ed G; 08-22-2006 at 05:20 PM.
#35
08-22-2006, 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by AthenG
/\ + 1
Why wait for it to drop and blip the gas so it stay there when up shifting there is no need to do this. You only double clutch when downshifting to preserve the syncro especially when downshifting 2 gears down.
what he explained is double clutching (Almost) but the purpose is wrong, No need to double clutch when upshifting, only when down shifting especially 2+ gears down.
Heel-and-Toe is the same as Double-Clutching except when you heel-toe you're are applying breaks at the same time. that why your toe is applied on the breaks while your heel is pressing the gas to double clutch(or vise versa) while downshifting.
Why wait for it to drop and blip the gas so it stay there
when up shifting there is no need to do this. You only double clutch when downshifting to preserve the syncro especially when downshifting 2 gears down.what he explained is double clutching (Almost) but the purpose is wrong, No need to double clutch when upshifting, only when down shifting especially 2+ gears down.
Heel-and-Toe is the same as Double-Clutching except when you heel-toe you're are applying breaks at the same time. that why your toe is applied on the breaks while your heel is pressing the gas to double clutch(or vise versa) while downshifting.
Ladies...that's called "REV MATCHING"...
So you get on me saying there's no "double" in my method of double clutching...yet your way, you only need the clutch once also??
#36
08-22-2006, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by AthenG
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...No need to double clutch when upshifting, only when down shifting especially 2+ gears down...
...No need to double clutch when upshifting, only when down shifting especially 2+ gears down...
If you are driving a vehicle with a synchromesh gearbox (e.g. G35) you don't ever need to double clutch and you won't gain any benefit by double clutching (unless your syncros are blown). The synchromesh gearbox essentially performs the same function as double clutching.
Double clutching in a G35 is like getting out of your car and wiping your windshield dry while your windshield wipers are on. It's redundant.
#37
08-22-2006, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Binpimpin77
Ladies...that's called "REV MATCHING"...
So you get on me saying there's no "double" in my method of double clutching...yet your way, you only need the clutch once also??
So you get on me saying there's no "double" in my method of double clutching...yet your way, you only need the clutch once also??
Double Clutch when downshifting/upshifting: you push in the clutch, pull the shifter out of gear, release the clutch then bleep the throttle to match the RPM of the next gear and then push the clutch again, then slide the shifter into the next gear.
Rev Matching is when you press the clutch and just bleep the throttle to match the RPM on the next gear.
Last edited by FI'ed G; 08-22-2006 at 10:09 PM.
#38
08-22-2006, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackbird V35
sure im the idiot, too bad when u take that .1 seconds into account into every shift youve already lost .3 seconds in the 1/4 mile.
#39
08-22-2006, 11:18 PM
That 1920's singer car link about synchro-mesh is the only place where I've read it's not recommended to double clutch, but what the heck is a Singer car anyway? and as for the other descriptions of what double clutching is...never knew what else it could mean til now.
I could single clutch downshift, but always double clutch downshift in the G35. I've been on the track with transmissions that NEED to double clutch downshift, so I'm just used to it. In my mind, it's all for keeping the car balanced when cornering (heel/toe downshift) at high speeds so that a non-rev matched downshift doesn't cause the car to lurch.
Here is a pretty good description by a track instructor on modern cars and the opinions (like aholes) on single/double clutching:
http://www.trillium-bmwclub.ca/site/page.jsp?pageid=121
"Proponents of double-clutching claim that it is smoother and saves on synchronizer wear and tear, and that it might be useful to learn in case you ever try a racing school that has old race cars which don't have synchromesh transmissions. Proponents of single-clutching claim that modern synchros seem to last well enough even if they aren't babied, and that there isn't anything to be gained, only time to be lost, by double-clutching. Almost all of our instructors single-clutch, with a few exceptions (all of whom drive older cars, by the way)."
brake late.
I could single clutch downshift, but always double clutch downshift in the G35. I've been on the track with transmissions that NEED to double clutch downshift, so I'm just used to it. In my mind, it's all for keeping the car balanced when cornering (heel/toe downshift) at high speeds so that a non-rev matched downshift doesn't cause the car to lurch.
Here is a pretty good description by a track instructor on modern cars and the opinions (like aholes) on single/double clutching:
http://www.trillium-bmwclub.ca/site/page.jsp?pageid=121
"Proponents of double-clutching claim that it is smoother and saves on synchronizer wear and tear, and that it might be useful to learn in case you ever try a racing school that has old race cars which don't have synchromesh transmissions. Proponents of single-clutching claim that modern synchros seem to last well enough even if they aren't babied, and that there isn't anything to be gained, only time to be lost, by double-clutching. Almost all of our instructors single-clutch, with a few exceptions (all of whom drive older cars, by the way)."
brake late.
#40
08-23-2006, 02:15 AM
Originally Posted by AthenG
You watch to much Fast and the Furious, I said Almost.
Double Clutch when downshifting/upshifting: you push in the clutch, pull the shifter out of gear, release the clutch then bleep the throttle to match the RPM of the next gear and then push the clutch again, then slide the shifter into the next gear.
Double Clutch when downshifting/upshifting: you push in the clutch, pull the shifter out of gear, release the clutch then bleep the throttle to match the RPM of the next gear and then push the clutch again, then slide the shifter into the next gear.
Whats's the point of engaging the clutch twice in the 1st place? If your down shifting from 3rd to 2nd let's say...you would let off the gas and push the clutch in, put the car into 2nd gear, blip the throttle to match the higher RPMs (Rev matching), and then release the clutch to engage the car into 2nd gear...thats all you need...you wouldn't need to let off the gas, push the clutch in, (put the car into netural and release the clutch while in netural,) blip the throttle to bring up the rev's (rev matching), press the clutch in again to put the car into the lower gear, and then release the clutch one more time to engage the car into 2nd gear???.. for what? When all you have to do is keep your foot on the clutch while you drop gear and "rev match"..you don't need to use the clutch twice.
Seem's to me like your the one who watched too much Fast and the Furious the way you play with your clutch in between shifts...
#41
08-23-2006, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Binpimpin77
It doesn't make sence..There's no point!
Whats's the point of engaging the clutch twice in the 1st place? If your down shifting from 3rd to 2nd let's say...you would let off the gas and push the clutch in, put the car into 2nd gear, blip the throttle to match the higher RPMs (Rev matching), and then release the clutch to engage the car into 2nd gear...thats all you need...you wouldn't need to let off the gas, push the clutch in, (put the car into netural and release the clutch while in netural,) blip the throttle to bring up the rev's (rev matching), press the clutch in again to put the car into the lower gear, and then release the clutch one more time to engage the car into 2nd gear???.. for what? When all you have to do is keep your foot on the clutch while you drop gear and "rev match"..you don't need to use the clutch twice.
Seem's to me like your the one who watched too much Fast and the Furious the way you play with your clutch in between shifts...
Whats's the point of engaging the clutch twice in the 1st place? If your down shifting from 3rd to 2nd let's say...you would let off the gas and push the clutch in, put the car into 2nd gear, blip the throttle to match the higher RPMs (Rev matching), and then release the clutch to engage the car into 2nd gear...thats all you need...you wouldn't need to let off the gas, push the clutch in, (put the car into netural and release the clutch while in netural,) blip the throttle to bring up the rev's (rev matching), press the clutch in again to put the car into the lower gear, and then release the clutch one more time to engage the car into 2nd gear???.. for what? When all you have to do is keep your foot on the clutch while you drop gear and "rev match"..you don't need to use the clutch twice.
Seem's to me like your the one who watched too much Fast and the Furious the way you play with your clutch in between shifts...
#42
08-23-2006, 11:20 AM
This thread needs to be canned.
1. Double-clutching is unnecessary.
2. Heel-toe braking/rev-matching or simply rev-matching while down-shifting IS necessary to prevent unnecessary wear on the clutch.
We're not driving manual transmission 1950 Jaguar coupes here. Its the 3rd millennium ladies and gentlemen.
END OF THREAD. Trust the elder members on this. NEXT SUBJECT PLEASE.
1. Double-clutching is unnecessary.
2. Heel-toe braking/rev-matching or simply rev-matching while down-shifting IS necessary to prevent unnecessary wear on the clutch.
We're not driving manual transmission 1950 Jaguar coupes here. Its the 3rd millennium ladies and gentlemen.
END OF THREAD. Trust the elder members on this. NEXT SUBJECT PLEASE.
Last edited by kidtronix; 08-23-2006 at 11:22 AM.
#43
08-23-2006, 11:31 AM
Originally Posted by kidtronix
This thread needs to be canned.
1. Double-clutching is unnecessary.
2. Heel-toe braking/rev-matching or simply rev-matching while down-shifting IS necessary to prevent unnecessary wear on the clutch.
We're not driving manual transmission 1950 Jaguar coupes here. Its the 3rd millennium ladies and gentlemen.
END OF THREAD. Trust the elder members on this. NEXT SUBJECT PLEASE.
1. Double-clutching is unnecessary.
2. Heel-toe braking/rev-matching or simply rev-matching while down-shifting IS necessary to prevent unnecessary wear on the clutch.
We're not driving manual transmission 1950 Jaguar coupes here. Its the 3rd millennium ladies and gentlemen.
END OF THREAD. Trust the elder members on this. NEXT SUBJECT PLEASE.
It's not necessary for street driving, but it's not as outdated as you think.
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