Took the G on the track
#16
05-21-2004, 02:56 AM
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#17
05-21-2004, 03:01 AM
Re: Took the G on the track
and you can give the Z06 the same changes and see better performance gains because of its chassis. can you translate the article? i am honestly curious as to the design pros and cons of both setups.
also, i believe the z06 is listed as Super Stock in SCCA (correct me if i'm wrong), whereas the G coupe is B stock. <P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by hueman on 05/21/04 12:18 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
also, i believe the z06 is listed as Super Stock in SCCA (correct me if i'm wrong), whereas the G coupe is B stock. <P ID="edit"><FONT class="small"><EM>Edited by hueman on 05/21/04 12:18 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
#18
05-21-2004, 09:53 AM
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Re: Took the G on the track
I think it’s listed in the SS class because of the massive power it produces.
The article i cannot translate, I do not speak Japanese nor read it. A friend of mine did the translation for me a wile back but now he's in the army.
Its a 2page article on the suspension design of the Z and G35 but mainly speaks of the G35. Some points i remember is that they say after years of R&D Nissan believes this design is the best for the Z and G with the understanding of racing technology.
And yes you can give Z06 even better settings than what it has but look at the money your spending on the Z06 compared to the G35?
My point is that G35 is a sports car to me, maybe not int he same class of sportscars as your thinking of but its sportscar. It drives like one and can outperform tons of other sportcars.
The article i cannot translate, I do not speak Japanese nor read it. A friend of mine did the translation for me a wile back but now he's in the army.
Its a 2page article on the suspension design of the Z and G35 but mainly speaks of the G35. Some points i remember is that they say after years of R&D Nissan believes this design is the best for the Z and G with the understanding of racing technology.
And yes you can give Z06 even better settings than what it has but look at the money your spending on the Z06 compared to the G35?
My point is that G35 is a sports car to me, maybe not int he same class of sportscars as your thinking of but its sportscar. It drives like one and can outperform tons of other sportcars.
#19
05-21-2004, 10:04 AM
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Re: Took the G on the track
I'm not sure if the G runs staggered tires F/R like the Z, but if those rears are wider then there's your problem and your easy fix for improved handling. Run as wide as you can up front and then match the rears to them. Presto! Much more neutral handling.
Thank Dave Coleman at Sport Compact Car for the little revelation.
Future G35C Owner... ...Never too soon to think about modifications!!
Thank Dave Coleman at Sport Compact Car for the little revelation.
Future G35C Owner... ...Never too soon to think about modifications!!
#20
05-21-2004, 10:06 AM
Re: Took the G on the track
That's a good article, but I don't see where it says a modded G35 for the same money as a Z06 is better than a stock Z06?
You are correct. The article does not say that. But what I did not disclose in my post was that it was my car and I wrote the article and filmed that video. Sorry for being too much in a hurry there.
I think that you and I are completely on the same page. The money to spend on the G is in suspension and drivetrain, and with a focus on dropping that evil enemy WEIGHT.
What I did was to replace the sways with stiffer adjustable sway bars front and rear to help address the chassis stiffness and understeer. Then put in the flex coil dampers and springs with the edfc to tune in that component. Toyo RA-1 race rubber and bigger feet...245 front and 275 rear with aspect ratios of 40F and 35R to get equal overall diameter wheels of 25.3 inches...and a four wheel 14.1 inch rotor StopTech big brake kit, with stainless steel brake lines and Motul 600rbf.
Finally, a nismo lsd in the rear and a nismo clutch and lightweight flywheel, (the impact of the flywheel weight reduction on performance was roughly equivalent to shedding 300 lbs of chassis weight). Throw the supercharger into the equation and you wind up with a car that has more hp, better braking, better handling than the stock Z06, and roughly weight equivalence, for about the same price....and it is a lot more luxe to ride around in. It is not the same car, and no need to put it into one is the "better" car type of debate...they are very different. (I wish like gangbusters that I could have one of each like you do...but I have kids so the other beast is a monster suv). So the point is not theoretical, I have done it and tracked it against the mighty Vette and you can see for yourself on the straights, the one place where skill matters for nothing and all you do is lay down the pedal and hold on, that the Vette doing the same thing did not pull away. Not many cars can claim to do that.
But what does it "prove"? Not much. Even though I passed a couple of Vettes, and lapped one of them, I was passed easily by yet a third one (supercharged) in the hands of an advanced driver. Now it was no longer an equivalent test in terms of drivers, or horsepower, but I have no doubt that he would have smoked me if his car was not modified....he was just better than me, plain and simple. Driver skill is what this is all about. It is just too important to be saying it too much. The car almost does not matter at the lower levels of skill on a track. Good drivers always beat the lesser skill drivers, barring breakdown. Equipment matters more as between equally matched drivers. (since lesser skill drivers cannot handle speeds going into, through and exiting turns, and race tracks are basically all turns connected by the occasional straight, their lap times in an identical car with 100 more hp will probably not be very different!!)
Sears Point is very technically demanding, and moderately fast. HP matters, but not like skill. Willow Springs is demanding (I am going up to run it in a couple of weeks), but in a very different way. It is really fast and high hp cars can get their jollies from 5 through 7, through the sweeper at 8, and coming out of 9 down the front straight. Even the big sweeper 2, though when handled well even a smaller hp car can boogie through that one if the suspension is right, is a fast turn. In contrast Buttonwillow has on circuit #13 layout better than 23 turns contrasted to Willow's 9. Miatas kick butt at Buttonwillow for sure.
Bottom line....out of the box the Z06 gives more world class performance for the buck than just about any car out there. It is simply awesome. The G35 gives a combination of luxury and performance that is, again for the price, most remarkable. But underneath the skin, the G35 has a performance bone structure that has real potential. It is based on a true sport car frame, the 350Z, and motor and tranny. To lean back in the direction of performance with the G35 is only to take it back to where it came from in the first place....so as contrasted with some other platforms, you can take this car a LONG way up the performance ladder easily, and that is what is so unique about it compared to many other types of small bodied GT type cars.
The G is not the be all and end all of cars. But what it is, is a fine little car with a lot of potential to do whatever you want to it, and get tangible results, in both suspension and power.
Cheers.
Cpe 6MT/Aero/Prem/ATI/RT cats/Borla hdrs-catbcks/Nismo flywhl-cltch/TS-ECU/Tein flex EDFC/Stillen sways
You are correct. The article does not say that. But what I did not disclose in my post was that it was my car and I wrote the article and filmed that video. Sorry for being too much in a hurry there.
I think that you and I are completely on the same page. The money to spend on the G is in suspension and drivetrain, and with a focus on dropping that evil enemy WEIGHT.
What I did was to replace the sways with stiffer adjustable sway bars front and rear to help address the chassis stiffness and understeer. Then put in the flex coil dampers and springs with the edfc to tune in that component. Toyo RA-1 race rubber and bigger feet...245 front and 275 rear with aspect ratios of 40F and 35R to get equal overall diameter wheels of 25.3 inches...and a four wheel 14.1 inch rotor StopTech big brake kit, with stainless steel brake lines and Motul 600rbf.
Finally, a nismo lsd in the rear and a nismo clutch and lightweight flywheel, (the impact of the flywheel weight reduction on performance was roughly equivalent to shedding 300 lbs of chassis weight). Throw the supercharger into the equation and you wind up with a car that has more hp, better braking, better handling than the stock Z06, and roughly weight equivalence, for about the same price....and it is a lot more luxe to ride around in. It is not the same car, and no need to put it into one is the "better" car type of debate...they are very different. (I wish like gangbusters that I could have one of each like you do...but I have kids so the other beast is a monster suv). So the point is not theoretical, I have done it and tracked it against the mighty Vette and you can see for yourself on the straights, the one place where skill matters for nothing and all you do is lay down the pedal and hold on, that the Vette doing the same thing did not pull away. Not many cars can claim to do that.
But what does it "prove"? Not much. Even though I passed a couple of Vettes, and lapped one of them, I was passed easily by yet a third one (supercharged) in the hands of an advanced driver. Now it was no longer an equivalent test in terms of drivers, or horsepower, but I have no doubt that he would have smoked me if his car was not modified....he was just better than me, plain and simple. Driver skill is what this is all about. It is just too important to be saying it too much. The car almost does not matter at the lower levels of skill on a track. Good drivers always beat the lesser skill drivers, barring breakdown. Equipment matters more as between equally matched drivers. (since lesser skill drivers cannot handle speeds going into, through and exiting turns, and race tracks are basically all turns connected by the occasional straight, their lap times in an identical car with 100 more hp will probably not be very different!!)
Sears Point is very technically demanding, and moderately fast. HP matters, but not like skill. Willow Springs is demanding (I am going up to run it in a couple of weeks), but in a very different way. It is really fast and high hp cars can get their jollies from 5 through 7, through the sweeper at 8, and coming out of 9 down the front straight. Even the big sweeper 2, though when handled well even a smaller hp car can boogie through that one if the suspension is right, is a fast turn. In contrast Buttonwillow has on circuit #13 layout better than 23 turns contrasted to Willow's 9. Miatas kick butt at Buttonwillow for sure.
Bottom line....out of the box the Z06 gives more world class performance for the buck than just about any car out there. It is simply awesome. The G35 gives a combination of luxury and performance that is, again for the price, most remarkable. But underneath the skin, the G35 has a performance bone structure that has real potential. It is based on a true sport car frame, the 350Z, and motor and tranny. To lean back in the direction of performance with the G35 is only to take it back to where it came from in the first place....so as contrasted with some other platforms, you can take this car a LONG way up the performance ladder easily, and that is what is so unique about it compared to many other types of small bodied GT type cars.
The G is not the be all and end all of cars. But what it is, is a fine little car with a lot of potential to do whatever you want to it, and get tangible results, in both suspension and power.
Cheers.
Cpe 6MT/Aero/Prem/ATI/RT cats/Borla hdrs-catbcks/Nismo flywhl-cltch/TS-ECU/Tein flex EDFC/Stillen sways
#21
05-21-2004, 10:21 AM
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#22
05-21-2004, 01:03 PM
Re: Took the G on the track
Racing Dynamics:
I am running the 12kg springs on the Teins.
I dropped about 30 pounds in weight on the exhaust including the headers, cats and catback..
Dropped another 20 pounds on the flywheel and clutch.
Dropped another 26 pounds on the wheels.
Dropped another 10 pounds on miscellany
Lowered the car about an inch all around.
I forget if the StopTechs are heavier than the Brembos, need to check that one out to see if some weight went back on with that mod.
Ron: the stock tires are 225/45 front and 245/45 rear, so there definitely is a stagger that promotes understeer.
Cpe 6MT/Aero/Prem/ATI/RT cats/Borla hdrs-catbcks/Nismo flywhl-cltch/TS-ECU/Tein flex EDFC/Stillen sways
I am running the 12kg springs on the Teins.
I dropped about 30 pounds in weight on the exhaust including the headers, cats and catback..
Dropped another 20 pounds on the flywheel and clutch.
Dropped another 26 pounds on the wheels.
Dropped another 10 pounds on miscellany
Lowered the car about an inch all around.
I forget if the StopTechs are heavier than the Brembos, need to check that one out to see if some weight went back on with that mod.
Ron: the stock tires are 225/45 front and 245/45 rear, so there definitely is a stagger that promotes understeer.
Cpe 6MT/Aero/Prem/ATI/RT cats/Borla hdrs-catbcks/Nismo flywhl-cltch/TS-ECU/Tein flex EDFC/Stillen sways
#23
05-21-2004, 01:24 PM
Re: Took the G on the track
I agree with most of what you wrote, and you do have your car setup nice. However, I question a few things about what you wrote:
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>
Finally, a nismo lsd in the rear and a nismo clutch and lightweight flywheel, (the impact of the flywheel weight reduction on performance was roughly equivalent to shedding 300 lbs of chassis weight).
<hr></blockquote>
I know you're not saying your new flywheel weighs 300 lbs. less than a stock flywheel. A lighter flywheel is great for acceleration adding about 20 rwhp, and feel, but doesn't help much in a sweeping turn when you're fighting the laws of physics with a certain vehicle weight working with a given contact patch of the tires. For handling, weight is weight.
I would be willing to bet that your car weighs MORE than a stock G35 Coupe. A supercharger kit with intercooler typically weighs about 80 lbs. itself, then add your larger tires and wheels, larger roll bars, larger brakes, and I'll bet you're over 3,500 lbs. even with the lighter flywheel.
You should weigh your car and find out. Everything else is just speculation. But what you're saying doesn't add up. You're saying you added all these mods, and by simply changing your flywheel your curb weight went down to 3,150 lbs., the same as a Z06. Sorry, but there's no freakin way!
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>
Throw the supercharger into the equation and you wind up with a car that has more hp, better braking, better handling than the stock Z06, and roughly weight equivalence, for about the same price....
<hr></blockquote>
Whoa! Again, this is all speculation! You need instrumented performance tests to back up this claim. What did your car dyno at? What is your 0-60 and quarter mile times? How fast can you take a slalom in MPH? How many lateral g's can the car hold on a skidpad? How fast does it stop from 60-0 in feet?
I'm sorry, but I don't see how your setup will out handle a stock Z06. You're talking about pulling MORE than 1.02 G's on a skidpad, and going faster than 70.5 MPH in the slalom with a car that weighs 400 lbs. more and still has smaller tires than a stock Z06.
Loose the weight, and I could see EQUIVALENT handling to the Z06, not better than. And certainly not with 3,500 lbs.
I mean you're basing your claim on the fact that you passed one C5 and one Z06 on a road course in an amateur driving group. There's too much driver variability to claim that your car is faster. The reality is you as a driver were faster that day than the Corvette drivers you encountered that day. My first day on the track, I was passing a guy in a 911 turbo, and a guy in a Viper GTS with my Z06, like they were standing still. Does that mean my Z06 is faster than both those cars? Hell no. Yet this is the same kind of claim that you are making.
If you want to see if your car is truly faster on a road course, you need to get an experienced or professional driver to drive a Z06 on a course as fast as he can, and record the average lap time. Then take that same driver and put him in your car, and record the average lap time. Which ever car has the lowest lap time is the faster track car. Because then, you're taking most of the driver variability out of the equation.
You can also look at the sanctioned road racing circuits and look at the best times recorded. I have yet to see a G35 stock, or modded beat a Z06's times on the track or in autocross in a professional competitive series. SCCA Solo II championship, Open Track Challenge, you name it. Hell, you usually don't see G35s at all in these series. Why? Because its not the greatest track car and its too heavy!
As for price, I challenge that too. I paid $37k for my G35 Coupe, loaded with everything but Sat. I paid $47k for my Z06, loaded but doesn't have Nav as an option.
Let's add up your mods:
Supercharger kit installed ~ $6k
Wheels & Tires ~ $2k
Brake kit ~ $2k
Suspension ~ $2.5k
Clutch & flywheel installed ~ $1.5k
LSD installed ~ $1.5k
That adds up to $15.5k in mods, and I was conservative in a lot of the estimates, such as assuming you install the suspension and wheels yourself to save labor costs. I also went conservative on the labor for the clutch and LSD install.
Add it up, and you're at $53k, more than a full sticker price for a Z06, even if I deleted the Nav option in the G35 to make it more comparable.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>
and it is a lot more luxe to ride around in.
<hr></blockquote>
A lot more? No. The G35 has better leather and carpet, a back seat, slightly better Bose system with CD changer, heated seats, and that's about it. Everything else the Z06 has too, including some features that the G35 doesn't have like full memory seats and Head Up Display.
The Z06 actually has a better ride than the G35. People who haven't ridden in a Z06 don't believe me, but the G35 suspension is actually stiffer than the Z06. And that's stock - aftermarket suspension makes it even stiffer. So the lux ride is out the window.
Hey man, no disrespect to your car and what you've done to it - its a really sweet ride. But I'm just doing a reality check here and keeping things in perspective. [img]/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/img]
2003 G35C, 6MT, DG/G, Aero/Nav/Premium
2002 Corvette Z06, Electron Blue/Black
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>
Finally, a nismo lsd in the rear and a nismo clutch and lightweight flywheel, (the impact of the flywheel weight reduction on performance was roughly equivalent to shedding 300 lbs of chassis weight).
<hr></blockquote>
I know you're not saying your new flywheel weighs 300 lbs. less than a stock flywheel. A lighter flywheel is great for acceleration adding about 20 rwhp, and feel, but doesn't help much in a sweeping turn when you're fighting the laws of physics with a certain vehicle weight working with a given contact patch of the tires. For handling, weight is weight.
I would be willing to bet that your car weighs MORE than a stock G35 Coupe. A supercharger kit with intercooler typically weighs about 80 lbs. itself, then add your larger tires and wheels, larger roll bars, larger brakes, and I'll bet you're over 3,500 lbs. even with the lighter flywheel.
You should weigh your car and find out. Everything else is just speculation. But what you're saying doesn't add up. You're saying you added all these mods, and by simply changing your flywheel your curb weight went down to 3,150 lbs., the same as a Z06. Sorry, but there's no freakin way!
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>
Throw the supercharger into the equation and you wind up with a car that has more hp, better braking, better handling than the stock Z06, and roughly weight equivalence, for about the same price....
<hr></blockquote>
Whoa! Again, this is all speculation! You need instrumented performance tests to back up this claim. What did your car dyno at? What is your 0-60 and quarter mile times? How fast can you take a slalom in MPH? How many lateral g's can the car hold on a skidpad? How fast does it stop from 60-0 in feet?
I'm sorry, but I don't see how your setup will out handle a stock Z06. You're talking about pulling MORE than 1.02 G's on a skidpad, and going faster than 70.5 MPH in the slalom with a car that weighs 400 lbs. more and still has smaller tires than a stock Z06.
Loose the weight, and I could see EQUIVALENT handling to the Z06, not better than. And certainly not with 3,500 lbs.
I mean you're basing your claim on the fact that you passed one C5 and one Z06 on a road course in an amateur driving group. There's too much driver variability to claim that your car is faster. The reality is you as a driver were faster that day than the Corvette drivers you encountered that day. My first day on the track, I was passing a guy in a 911 turbo, and a guy in a Viper GTS with my Z06, like they were standing still. Does that mean my Z06 is faster than both those cars? Hell no. Yet this is the same kind of claim that you are making.
If you want to see if your car is truly faster on a road course, you need to get an experienced or professional driver to drive a Z06 on a course as fast as he can, and record the average lap time. Then take that same driver and put him in your car, and record the average lap time. Which ever car has the lowest lap time is the faster track car. Because then, you're taking most of the driver variability out of the equation.
You can also look at the sanctioned road racing circuits and look at the best times recorded. I have yet to see a G35 stock, or modded beat a Z06's times on the track or in autocross in a professional competitive series. SCCA Solo II championship, Open Track Challenge, you name it. Hell, you usually don't see G35s at all in these series. Why? Because its not the greatest track car and its too heavy!
As for price, I challenge that too. I paid $37k for my G35 Coupe, loaded with everything but Sat. I paid $47k for my Z06, loaded but doesn't have Nav as an option.
Let's add up your mods:
Supercharger kit installed ~ $6k
Wheels & Tires ~ $2k
Brake kit ~ $2k
Suspension ~ $2.5k
Clutch & flywheel installed ~ $1.5k
LSD installed ~ $1.5k
That adds up to $15.5k in mods, and I was conservative in a lot of the estimates, such as assuming you install the suspension and wheels yourself to save labor costs. I also went conservative on the labor for the clutch and LSD install.
Add it up, and you're at $53k, more than a full sticker price for a Z06, even if I deleted the Nav option in the G35 to make it more comparable.
<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>
and it is a lot more luxe to ride around in.
<hr></blockquote>
A lot more? No. The G35 has better leather and carpet, a back seat, slightly better Bose system with CD changer, heated seats, and that's about it. Everything else the Z06 has too, including some features that the G35 doesn't have like full memory seats and Head Up Display.
The Z06 actually has a better ride than the G35. People who haven't ridden in a Z06 don't believe me, but the G35 suspension is actually stiffer than the Z06. And that's stock - aftermarket suspension makes it even stiffer. So the lux ride is out the window.
Hey man, no disrespect to your car and what you've done to it - its a really sweet ride. But I'm just doing a reality check here and keeping things in perspective. [img]/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/img]
2003 G35C, 6MT, DG/G, Aero/Nav/Premium
2002 Corvette Z06, Electron Blue/Black
#24
05-21-2004, 07:26 PM
Re: Took the G on the track
No sweat. No disrespect meant, and none taken. I have driven both and I like mine hands down way better. Different, but like it better. My definite feeling is that the car is superior in acceleration and handling. That is all.
Cpe 6MT/Aero/Prem/ATI/RT cats/Borla hdrs-catbcks/Nismo flywhl-cltch/TS-ECU/Tein flex EDFC/Stillen sways
Cpe 6MT/Aero/Prem/ATI/RT cats/Borla hdrs-catbcks/Nismo flywhl-cltch/TS-ECU/Tein flex EDFC/Stillen sways
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