Detonation Indicators

The best indication of detonation is the pinging sound that cars, particularly old models, make at low speeds and under load. It is very difficult to hear the sound in well insulated luxury interiors of today's cars. An unmuffled engine running straight pipes or a propeller turning can easily mask the characteristic ping. The point is that you honestly don't know that detonation is going on. In some cases, the engine may smoke but not as a rule. Broken piston ring lands are the most typical result of detonation but are usually not spotted. If the engine has detonated visual signs like broken spark plug porcelains or broken ground electrodes are dead giveaways and call for further examination or engine disassembly.

It is also very difficult to sense detonation while an engine is running in a remote and insulated dyno test cell. One technique seems almost elementary but, believe it or not, it is employed in some of the highest priced dyno cells in the world. We refer to it as the "Tin Ear". You might think of it as a simple stethoscope applied to the engine block. We run a ordinary rubber hose from the dyno operator area next to the engine. To amplify the engine sounds we just stick the end of the hose through the bottom of a Styrofoam cup and listen in! It is common for ride test engineers to use this method on development cars particularly if there is a suspicion out on the road borderline detonation is occurring. Try it on your engine; you will be amazed at how well you can hear the different engine noises.

The other technique is a little more subtle but usable if attention is paid to EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature). Detonation will actually cause EGTs to drop. This behavior has fooled a lot of people because they will watch the EGT and think that it is in a low enough range to be safe, the only reason it is low is because the engine is detonating.

The only way you know what is actually happening is to be very familiar with your specific engine EGT readings as calibrations and probe locations vary. If, for example, you normally run 1500 degrees at a given MAP setting and you suddenly see 1125 after picking up a fresh load of fuel you should be alert to possible or incipient detonation. Any drop from normal EGT should be reason for concern. Using the "Tin Ear" during the early test stage and watching the EGT very carefully, other than just plain listening with your ear without any augmentation, is the only way to identify detonation. The good thing is, most engines will live with a fairly high level of detonation for some period of time. It is not an instantaneous type failure.

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Pre-Ignition

The definition of pre-ignition is the ignition of the fuel/air charge prior to the spark plug firing. Pre-ignition caused by some other ignition source such as an overheated spark plug tip, carbon deposits in the combustion chamber and, rarely, a burned exhaust valve; all act as a glow plug to ignite the charge.

Keep in mind the following sequence when analyzing pre-ignition. The charge enters the combustion chamber as the piston reaches BDC for intake; the piston next reverses direction and starts to compress the charge. Since the spark voltage requirements to light the charge increase in proportion with the amount of charge compression; almost anything can ignite the proper fuel/air mixture at BDC!! BDC or before is the easiest time to light that mixture. It becomes progressively more difficult as the pressure starts to build.

A glowing spot somewhere in the chamber is the most likely point for pre-ignition to occur. It is very conceivable that if you have something glowing, like a spark plug tip or a carbon ember, it could ignite the charge while the piston is very early in the compression stoke. The result is understandable; for the entire compression stroke, or a great portion of it, the engine is trying to compress a hot mass of expanded gas. That obviously puts tremendous load on the engine and adds tremendous heat into its parts. Substantial damage occurs very quickly. You can't hear it because there is no rapid pressure rise. This all occurs well before the spark plug fires.

Remember, the spark plug ignites the mixture and a sharp pressure spike occurs after that, when the detonation occurs. That's what you hear. With pre-ignition, the ignition of the charge happens far ahead of the spark plug firing, in my example, very, very far ahead of it when the compression stroke just starts. There is no very rapid pressure spike like with detonation. Instead, it is a tremendous amount of pressure which is present for a very long dwell time, i.e., the entire compression stroke. That's what puts such large loads on the parts. There is no sharp pressure spike to resonate the block and the head to cause any noise. So you never hear it, the engine just blows up! That's why pre-ignition is so insidious. It is hardly detectable before it occurs. When it occurs you only know about it after the fact. It causes a catastrophic failure very quickly because the heat and pressures are so intense.

An engine can live with detonation occurring for considerable periods of time, relatively speaking. There are no engines that will live for any period of time when pre-ignition occurs. When people see broken ring lands they mistakenly blame it on pre-ignition and overlook the hammering from detonation that caused the problem. A hole in the middle of the piston, particularly a melted hole in the middle of a piston, is due to the extreme heat and pressure of pre-ignition.

Other signs of pre-ignition are melted spark plugs showing splattered, melted, fused looking porcelain. Many times a "pre-ignited plug" will melt away the ground electrode. What's left will look all spattered and fuzzy looking. The center electrode will be melted and gone and its porcelain will be spattered and melted. This is a typical sign of incipient pre-ignition.

The plug may be getting hot, melting and "getting ready" to act as a pre-ignition source. The plug can actually melt without pre-ignition occurring. However, the melted plug can cause pre-ignition the next time around.

The typical pre-ignition indicator, of course, would be the hole in the piston. This occurs because in trying to compress the already burned mixture the parts soak up a tremendous amount of heat very quickly. The only ones that survive are the ones that have a high thermal inertia, like the cylinder head or cylinder wall. The piston, being aluminum, has a low thermal inertia (aluminum soaks up the heat very rapidly). The crown of the piston is relatively thin, it gets very hot, it can't reject the heat, it has tremendous pressure loads against it and the result is a hole in the middle of the piston where it is weakest.

I want to emphasis that when most people think of pre-ignition, they generally accept the fact that the charge was ignited before the spark plug fires. However, I believe they limit their thinking to 5-10 degrees before the spark plug fires. You have to really accept that the most likely point for pre-ignition to occur is 180 degrees BTDC, some 160 degrees before the spark plug would have fired because that's the point (if there is a glowing ember in the chamber) when it's most likely to be ignited. We are talking some 160-180 degrees of bum being compressed that would normally be relatively cool. A piston will only take a few revolutions of that distress before it fails. As for detonation, it can get hammered on for seconds, minutes, or hours depending on the output of the engine and the load, before any damage occurs. Pre-ignition damage is almost instantaneous.

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When the piston crown temperature rises rapidly it never has time to get to the skirt and expand and cause it to scuff. It just melts the center right out of the piston. That's the biggest difference between detonation and pre-ignition when looking at piston failures. Without a high pressure spike to resonate the chamber and block, you would never hear pre-ignition. The only sign of pre-ignition is white smoke pouring out the tailpipe and the engine quits running.

The engine will not run more than a few seconds with pre-ignition. The only way to control pre-ignition is just keep any pre-ignition sources at bay. Spark plugs should be carefully matched to the recommended heat range. Racers use cold spark plugs and relatively rich mixtures. Spark plug heat range is also affected by coolant temperatures. A marginal heat range plug can induce pre-ignition because of an overheated head (high coolant temperature or inadequate flow). Also, a loose plug can't reject sufficient heat through its seat. A marginal heat range plug running lean (suddenly?) can cause pre-ignition.

Passenger car engine designers face a dilemma. Spark plugs must cold start at -40 degrees F. (which calls for hot plugs that resist fouling) yet be capable of extended WOT operation (which calls for cold plugs and maximum heat transfer to the cylinder head).

Here is how spark plug effectiveness or "pre-ignition" testing is done at WOT. Plug tip/gap temperature is measured with a blocking diode and a small battery supplying current through a milliamp meter to the spark plug terminal. The secondary voltage cannot come backwards up the wire because the large blocking diode prevents it.

As the spark plug tip heats up, it tends to ionize the gap and small levels of current will flow from the battery as indicated by the milliamp gauge. The engine is run under load and the gauges are closely watched. Through experience techni-cians learn what to expect from the gauges. Typically, very light activity, just a few milliamps of current, is observed across the spark plug gap. In instances where the spark plug tip/gap gets hot enough to act as an ignition source the milliamp current flow suddenly jumps off scale. When that happens, instant power reduction is necessary to avoid major engine damage.

Back in the 80s, running engines that made half a horsepower per cubic inch, we could artificially and safely induce pre-ignition by using too hot of a plug and leaning out the mixture. We could determine how close we were by watching the gauges and had plenty of time (seconds) to power down, before any damage occurred.

With the Northstar making over 1 HP per cubic inch, at 6000 RPM, if the needles move from nominal, you just failed the engine. It's that quick! When you disassemble the engine, you'll find definite evidence of damage. It might be just melted spark plugs. But pre-ignition happens that quick in high output engines. There is very little time to react.

If cold starts and plug fouling are not a major worry run very cold spark plugs. A typical case of very cold plug application is a NASCAR type engine. Because the prime pre-ignition source is eliminated engine tuners can lean out the mixture (some) for maximum fuel economy and add a lot of spark advance for power and even risk some levels of detonation. Those plugs are terrible for cold starting and emissions and they would foul up while you were idling around town but for running at full throttle at 8000 RPM, they function fine. They eliminate a variable that could induce pre-ignition.

Engine developers run very cold spark plugs to avoid the risk of getting into pre-ignition during engine mapping of air/fuel and spark advance, Production engine calibration requires that we have much hotter spark plugs for cold startability and fouling resistance. To avoid pre-ignition we then compensate by making sure the fuel/air calibration is rich enough to keep the spark plugs cool at high loads and at high temperatures, so that they don't induce pre-ignition.

Consider the Northstar engine. If you do a full throttle 0-60 blast, the engine will likely run up to 6000 RPM at a 11.5:1 or 12:1 air fuel ratio. But under sustained load, at about 20 seconds, that air fuel ratio is richened up by the PCM to about 10:1. That is done to keep the spark plugs cool, as well as the piston crowns cool. That richness is necessary if you are running under continuous WOT load. A slight penalty in horsepower and fuel economy is the result. To get the maximum acceleration out of the engine, you can actually lean it out, but under full load, it has to go back to rich. Higher specific output engines are much more sensitive to pre-ignition damage because they are turning more RPM, they are generating a lot more heat and they are burning more fuel. Plugs have a tendency to get hot at that high specific output and reaction time to damage is minimal.

A carburetor set up for a drag racer would never work on a NASCAR or stock car engine because it would overheat and cause pre-ignition. But on the drag strip for 8 or 10 seconds, pre-ignition never has time to occur, so dragsters can get away with it. Differences in tuning for those two different types of engine applications are dramatic. That's why a drag race engine would make a poor choice for an aircraft engine

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Muddy Water

There is a situation called detonation induced pre-ignition. I don't want to sound like double speak here but it does happen. Imagine an engine under heavy load starting to detonate. Detonation continues for a long period of time. The plug heats up because the pressure spikes break down the protective boundary layer of gas surrounding the electrodes. The plug temperature suddenly starts to elevate unnaturally, to the point when it becomes a glow plug and induces pre-ignition. When the engine fails, I categorize that result as "detonation induced pre-ignition." There would not have been any danger of pre-ignition if the detonation had not occurred. Damage attributed to both detonation and pre-ignition would be evident.

Typically, that is what we see in passenger car engines. The engines will typically live for long periods of time under detonation. In fact, we actually run a lot of piston tests where we run the engine at the torque peak, induce moderate levels of detonation deliberately. Based on our resulting production design, the piston should pass those tests without any problem; the pistons should be robust enough to survive. If, however, under circumstances due to overheating or poor fuel, the spark plug tip overheats and induces pre-ignition, it's obviously not going to survive. If we see a failure, it probably is a detonation induced pre-ignition situation.

I would urge any experimenter to be cautious using automotive based engines in other applications. In general, engines producing .5 HP/in3 (typical air-cooled aircraft engines) can be forgiving (as leaning to peak EGT, etc.). But at 1.0 HP/in3 (very typical of many high performance automotive conversions) the window for calibration induced engine damage is much less forgiving. Start out rich, retarded and with cold plugs and watch the EGTs!

Hopefully this discussion will serve as a thought starter. I welcome any communication on this subject. Every application is unique so beware of blanket statements as many variables affect these processes. AWC

The end - and one of the best articles for answering lay-level tuning/octane/detonation questions I have ever read.

 

damn thats really really reallly long... but nice info... sucks that i ddnt read it all... neone wanna summarize it for me?

 

Do yourseft and your G the favor of
Premium Only Please!
htb

 

The main thing that higher octane fuel does is provide a slower burn time. That allows for a more advanced spark timing, more boost, and so on. Using a lower octane fuel will cause the check engine light to come on, I speak from experience. The lowest that I have gone without a light is 91 octane and my G ran fine. The main thing that I avoid is bargain fuel from second rate gas stations. There is a reason why their fuel is cheaper. There are three tiers of gasoline that are available and I'm not talking about the differents grades like 89, 91, etc. The first tier is the best, cleanest burning fuel. The second is in between the first and third, obviously. And the third is the worst "crap" you can put in your car. The first tier is available at any brand name gas station like BP, Shell, etc. The worst ones are the ones that every grade is .20 cents lower than comparable grades at name brand stations. If you want more information on this, Shell gasoline is where you can find more about it. That's where I learned about it. They had a bulleitin posted in the back for their employees. They might have something online, but I haven't really checked.

 

http://www.scottoilinc.com/home/index.php

 

Thats the closest thing that I could find, but it's kind of a sales pitch for Shell. It gets the message across though.

 

I have a 05 G35 Coupe AT, will it really matter say in the long run if say i just use regular oil, i know its only one or two dollars but i just want to know if it will screw up the engine. Im not going to race or anything just to drive to school and back but if anyone has like any proof of the actual engine screwing up by using regular gas. Any help would be appriciated!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

if memory serves this is a 10.1:1 or 10.5:1 compression ratio, anything less than Premium 91 Octane woiuld be very foolish

 

If you hear a pinging sound when you are running the car, then you are harming it with the lower grade gasoline. You have to remember that a higher octane gas burns slower. That means that the spark can fire off sooner before top dead center on the compression stroke. If you run a lower grade gas, its going to burn faster. That means that the fuel and air mixture is going to be burning so fast that it is going to try to force the piston back down before it has gotten past top dead center and started the power stroke. That is an extremly intense condition especially when you consider that combustion temperatures climb over 2,500 degrees. It puts unwanted stress on the pistons, connecting rods, and so on and so on. The computer systems on modern cars can adjust for this to a certain point, but they have their limits. When they reach their limits they will throw trouble codes, light the check engine light, and have the power to shut down the engine all together if conditions are that bad. Running regular gas won't blow up the engine, but it will make that pinging sound and light up the check engine light. Over a long period of time it could cause problems but if you had to put some regular gas in the tank just to get you by, you won't have any problems. Except for a temporary check engine light and pinging sound. They will both go away once you put premium back in though. The best thing you can do to save money at the gas pump is to take it easy on the gas when you're driving.

 

Go here to see for yourself; note #2 on right "Fuel octane too low"; there is a ton of info on this out there.

http://www.hastingsmfg.com/Service%2...reignition.htm

htb

 

Don't even think about it.....Don't give your car a reason to f up.

 

My manual says that the sedan with automatic can use regular fuel, whereas the sedan with manual transmission and coupes require premium. The engines are the same and the specs are the same (HP and torque). If the sedan with automatic can use regular, why can't the coupe with automatic??