automatics...
#31
11-23-2009, 12:36 PM
it's inaccurate to say that the auto will shift faster than any human can. it CAN shift faster, but it isn't programed to do so. it would be easy to flash it to shift faster through Osiris or a similar company, but the manumatic and full auto mode has the granny shifting of a Buick Century.
what WOULD be accurate to state is that a computer never screws up. you just put your foot down. whereas a human is likely to miss shifts, etc. if you flashed the computer im sure it would be a good bit faster, however with the weight against it, if the manuals driver was worth his salt i think you'd still be out of luck.
what WOULD be accurate to state is that a computer never screws up. you just put your foot down. whereas a human is likely to miss shifts, etc. if you flashed the computer im sure it would be a good bit faster, however with the weight against it, if the manuals driver was worth his salt i think you'd still be out of luck.
#32
11-23-2009, 12:56 PM
it's inaccurate to say that the auto will shift faster than any human can. it CAN shift faster, but it isn't programed to do so. it would be easy to flash it to shift faster through Osiris or a similar company, but the manumatic and full auto mode has the granny shifting of a Buick Century.
what WOULD be accurate to state is that a computer never screws up. you just put your foot down. whereas a human is likely to miss shifts, etc. if you flashed the computer im sure it would be a good bit faster, however with the weight against it, if the manuals driver was worth his salt i think you'd still be out of luck.
what WOULD be accurate to state is that a computer never screws up. you just put your foot down. whereas a human is likely to miss shifts, etc. if you flashed the computer im sure it would be a good bit faster, however with the weight against it, if the manuals driver was worth his salt i think you'd still be out of luck.
If you take a typical driver and put them into both versions. On ave, the auto equipped driver will shift faster and more consistently than the one on the manual. In order for a manual driver to shift the same or faster than an auto, he would have to be close to an expert and be willing to seriously sacrifice the life of his tranny to do so. The only way to shift as fast is to powershift. The auto driver only has to keep his pedal floored and hang on.
I'd bring the issue of autos being able to brake boost but no need yet.
#33
11-23-2009, 01:30 PM
#34
11-23-2009, 01:38 PM
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G35 sedan w/ too much money in mods
#35
11-23-2009, 01:47 PM
it's inaccurate to say that the auto will shift faster than any human can. it CAN shift faster, but it isn't programed to do so. it would be easy to flash it to shift faster through Osiris or a similar company, but the manumatic and full auto mode has the granny shifting of a Buick Century.
what WOULD be accurate to state is that a computer never screws up. you just put your foot down. whereas a human is likely to miss shifts, etc. if you flashed the computer im sure it would be a good bit faster, however with the weight against it, if the manuals driver was worth his salt i think you'd still be out of luck.
what WOULD be accurate to state is that a computer never screws up. you just put your foot down. whereas a human is likely to miss shifts, etc. if you flashed the computer im sure it would be a good bit faster, however with the weight against it, if the manuals driver was worth his salt i think you'd still be out of luck.
The problem that most manual drivers have with autos is that they expect instant shift response. They push the pedal down and they think within a fraction of a second, the tranny should find the right gear. Same goes for upshifts. They think the second the shifter is tapped for an upshift, it should shift. They seem to fail to understand just how long it takes to execute an up/downshift with a manual. Yeah, tapping a shifter and waiting a split second does seem like a long time, but it's usually going to take longer with the manual, especially a rev-match downshift. It's a control thing.
With that said, I love having my paddle shifters. The car feels more responsive because all I have to do is move my fingers to ask for a double downshift when coming up to a turn or a full throttle upshift.
#36
11-23-2009, 02:48 PM
The problem that most manual drivers have with autos is that they expect instant shift response. They push the pedal down and they think within a fraction of a second, the tranny should find the right gear. Same goes for upshifts. They think the second the shifter is tapped for an upshift, it should shift. They seem to fail to understand just how long it takes to execute an up/downshift with a manual. Yeah, tapping a shifter and waiting a split second does seem like a long time, but it's usually going to take longer with the manual, especially a rev-match downshift. It's a control thing.
Bingo.
That's the #1 reason why i dislike using manumatic. In 1+ year of owning my car...i've prob used it a total of 30 mins
#37
11-23-2009, 02:51 PM
#38
11-23-2009, 03:12 PM
#39
11-23-2009, 03:15 PM
What's VDC? lol I haven't had my VDC on in my car since the day I took it home. So I could not compare the two!
The ECU definitely learns your driving habits, if you take 20 minutes to get to 60 then you're going to teach it to chill and not worry about shifting quick. If you slam the **** out of it every time, then it's going to wanna play non stop.
The ECU definitely learns your driving habits, if you take 20 minutes to get to 60 then you're going to teach it to chill and not worry about shifting quick. If you slam the **** out of it every time, then it's going to wanna play non stop.
#41
11-23-2009, 03:28 PM
#43
11-23-2009, 04:10 PM
Yes, the automatic programming is driver adaptive.
#44
11-23-2009, 04:34 PM
The gearing you posted is for the 07+ sedans with taller tires, much heavier weight, and the higher revving VQ35/37HR motors. They need the additional torque multiplication to get their heavy butts off the line and to sail through their lofty 7700rpm rev limit.
The term "deeper" gearing means shorter gearing. Deeper gearing can improve acceleration, but only to a point. It is possible to overgear a car and also cars that come undergeared will make larger jumps in acceleration when deeper gears are added. The G/Z, auto or 6MT, isn't one of those cars. It also very much the reason why these cars don't get exceptional MPGs. Nissan choose to go with performance gearsets in lieu of high mileage gear sets.
You're right, the manual shift mode isn't lightning quick, but you have to consider what's going on. You're doing next to nothing other than hitting the shifter to make the shift. The tranny must take your requested shift and process the data and excute the shift, hence the delay. Newer autos have gotten much quicker in this operation, but there is still a delay unless you're talking about the 8AT found in the Lexus IS-F which shifts faster than most any sequential manual on the market. With a 6MT, you've got a lot more going on. You've got to grasp the shifter, push in the clutch, move the shifter, manipulate the throttle, and release the clutch. Yes, you're in control, it's far from a faster process. You could powershift, but at best, it's going to net you .1 seconds in the 1/4 mile and at a huge risk to the already super weak clutch and syncros of the 6MT. When left in the auto mode, the 5AT will rip off very quick shifts with no delay. Most professional drivers couldn't match the shift speed, largely because the auto is behaving like a DSG tranny in that the next gear is already ready to go on the shift.
The mag times you posted a legit, especially the Motor Trend COY test of the 03 sedan. What's interesting is the first time out in my 03 sedan (Z-tube only, doesn't add any power), I saw a 14.69@96.8mph letting the tranny shift itself, which is how Motor Trend did it. On the next run, I manually shifted the 2-3 and held 3rd the entire run. The car did a 14.49@97.3mph that run. MT corrects their times for sea conditions and I was running in 1,400' air. My times would have corrected into the 14.3s@98mph. I ran again a few months later in sea level like conditions and with no changes and the car ran consistent low 14.3s/14.4s@98mph. The following spring and in 1,800' air, the car did a 14.35@99.8mph with the addition of a MD spacer. The corrected time would be in the low 14.2 range at 101ish.
My experience, as well as many other 5AT owners, is that these autos are just as quick as their 6MT counterparts in the 1/4 mile assuming the 5AT owner knows what they're doing. Yes, the 6MT will typically see higher traps which suggests high hp, but you're only talking about ~1mph difference. Street tire to street and mod and mod, it's going to be a driver's race. If the 6MT driver is exceptional, then I'd give the nod to the 6MT driver by a car length. However, I'd say 1 in 10, if that, 6MT drivers fit the exceptional category. The hardest thing about driving any manual at the strip is the launch. Getting a good 60' in a 6MT is hard and getting a good one in the auto is pretty easy because you can preload the drivetrain and reduce tire shock.
Now if we're talking all out drag racing where slicks are involved, the 6MT has the nod by a long shot unless the auto has basically an unstreetable 4000-4500rpm stall TC and a deeper gear set. With the 6MT, you simply rev up to 5500-6000rpms, say a prayer, and launch your way to a high 1.7/low 1.8 60'. That's a huge advantage.
With regards to the TC in the G/Z, it has a stall speed of around 2800-2900rpms. That's about 400 to 700rpms higher stall that you'll in other similiar V6 applications and is pretty high for any factory torque converter. It's also a pretty efficent TC with fairly low pumping losses hence the reason the 5AT only sucks out about 10whp/10wtq. As for the shape of the 5AT powerband, it's exactly like the 6MT, except the powerband is 10whp/10wtq lower at all points.
Finally, the new 7AT is turning out to be the acceleration choice in the G37 and 370Z. On average, these ideally geared autos are seeing solid .2 to .3 second faster ETs in the 1/4 mile both in the mags and by owners alike. It's just more proof that OEM autos have come a huge way in just the past 10 years. Mercedes' new auto that uses an elaborate clutch style device in lieu of a torque converter is proving to be the future on an automatic. Gone are the pumping losses and shift speeds are unmatched by any sequetial manual. Mark my word, it's the future of transmissions. Faster shift speeds, far less complicated and cheaper than a sequential manual, lighter, and great driveability. There's still no substitute for a good driving manual (the manual in the G/Z isn't one of them), but if you care about all out performance, the playing field is pretty much level now and is starting to lean towards the auto side of things.
The term "deeper" gearing means shorter gearing. Deeper gearing can improve acceleration, but only to a point. It is possible to overgear a car and also cars that come undergeared will make larger jumps in acceleration when deeper gears are added. The G/Z, auto or 6MT, isn't one of those cars. It also very much the reason why these cars don't get exceptional MPGs. Nissan choose to go with performance gearsets in lieu of high mileage gear sets.
You're right, the manual shift mode isn't lightning quick, but you have to consider what's going on. You're doing next to nothing other than hitting the shifter to make the shift. The tranny must take your requested shift and process the data and excute the shift, hence the delay. Newer autos have gotten much quicker in this operation, but there is still a delay unless you're talking about the 8AT found in the Lexus IS-F which shifts faster than most any sequential manual on the market. With a 6MT, you've got a lot more going on. You've got to grasp the shifter, push in the clutch, move the shifter, manipulate the throttle, and release the clutch. Yes, you're in control, it's far from a faster process. You could powershift, but at best, it's going to net you .1 seconds in the 1/4 mile and at a huge risk to the already super weak clutch and syncros of the 6MT. When left in the auto mode, the 5AT will rip off very quick shifts with no delay. Most professional drivers couldn't match the shift speed, largely because the auto is behaving like a DSG tranny in that the next gear is already ready to go on the shift.
The mag times you posted a legit, especially the Motor Trend COY test of the 03 sedan. What's interesting is the first time out in my 03 sedan (Z-tube only, doesn't add any power), I saw a 14.69@96.8mph letting the tranny shift itself, which is how Motor Trend did it. On the next run, I manually shifted the 2-3 and held 3rd the entire run. The car did a 14.49@97.3mph that run. MT corrects their times for sea conditions and I was running in 1,400' air. My times would have corrected into the 14.3s@98mph. I ran again a few months later in sea level like conditions and with no changes and the car ran consistent low 14.3s/14.4s@98mph. The following spring and in 1,800' air, the car did a 14.35@99.8mph with the addition of a MD spacer. The corrected time would be in the low 14.2 range at 101ish.
My experience, as well as many other 5AT owners, is that these autos are just as quick as their 6MT counterparts in the 1/4 mile assuming the 5AT owner knows what they're doing. Yes, the 6MT will typically see higher traps which suggests high hp, but you're only talking about ~1mph difference. Street tire to street and mod and mod, it's going to be a driver's race. If the 6MT driver is exceptional, then I'd give the nod to the 6MT driver by a car length. However, I'd say 1 in 10, if that, 6MT drivers fit the exceptional category. The hardest thing about driving any manual at the strip is the launch. Getting a good 60' in a 6MT is hard and getting a good one in the auto is pretty easy because you can preload the drivetrain and reduce tire shock.
Now if we're talking all out drag racing where slicks are involved, the 6MT has the nod by a long shot unless the auto has basically an unstreetable 4000-4500rpm stall TC and a deeper gear set. With the 6MT, you simply rev up to 5500-6000rpms, say a prayer, and launch your way to a high 1.7/low 1.8 60'. That's a huge advantage.
With regards to the TC in the G/Z, it has a stall speed of around 2800-2900rpms. That's about 400 to 700rpms higher stall that you'll in other similiar V6 applications and is pretty high for any factory torque converter. It's also a pretty efficent TC with fairly low pumping losses hence the reason the 5AT only sucks out about 10whp/10wtq. As for the shape of the 5AT powerband, it's exactly like the 6MT, except the powerband is 10whp/10wtq lower at all points.
Finally, the new 7AT is turning out to be the acceleration choice in the G37 and 370Z. On average, these ideally geared autos are seeing solid .2 to .3 second faster ETs in the 1/4 mile both in the mags and by owners alike. It's just more proof that OEM autos have come a huge way in just the past 10 years. Mercedes' new auto that uses an elaborate clutch style device in lieu of a torque converter is proving to be the future on an automatic. Gone are the pumping losses and shift speeds are unmatched by any sequetial manual. Mark my word, it's the future of transmissions. Faster shift speeds, far less complicated and cheaper than a sequential manual, lighter, and great driveability. There's still no substitute for a good driving manual (the manual in the G/Z isn't one of them), but if you care about all out performance, the playing field is pretty much level now and is starting to lean towards the auto side of things.
You do realize that he used a term that I've used to explain how a manual driver can shift faster than an automatic don't you?
Oh man keep them coming, you are a trip. I'm subscribing to this thread because of your "knowledgeable" posts and antics.
#45
11-23-2009, 04:38 PM
Seeing as how I said track and not streets, you must be one of Calvin's students.
Then why do most traditional manual transmission cars have faster 0-60 times than their traditional auto counterpart? Gearing plays a role, I'll give you that but we are talking about shift speeds.
Beats me, I'm still waiting on your dyno proof that they both dyno the same numbers with the same condition and same dyno. Are you confusing drivetrain loss with making power? Actually trap speed is generally reserved for power and ET is for launch/traction.
You must have failed to see the NA times tsk tsk trey.hutcheson would be so disappointed in you. I want to say check out post 4 and 5 but I'm afraid you might miss that too.
He is the man, he lives his life a quarter mile at a time and owns his own deli shop. My hero, well next to you with your bag full of good info.
I don't care if dave doesn't like me saying it's rice math, that's what it is. There is not a 10hp drivetrain loss. There is no additional power with the 6mt cars, there is only a more manipulative launch make the 60' faster which in term makes the trap speed higher, but the 1/4 time is lower on the AT because of..... THE SHIFT TIME
He is the man, he lives his life a quarter mile at a time and owns his own deli shop. My hero, well next to you with your bag full of good info.