So, now you're an expert on placebo effect??? How about Ritalin and the suicide potential of adolecents while taking SSRIs?

I AM! I get paid damn well knowing these things, and I assure you, that placebo effect has little to do with it! It's usually placebo effect that tells modders that a louder, more aggressive engine/exhaust tone = greater horsepower!

Grounding in fact seems to do the opposite if anything. It can make the engine so much smoother, that the effect should feel that it's less powerful, or is accelerating slower, not faster as is the case with grounding! How do you otherwise explain this paradoxical effect?

You also seem to conveniently ignore that blind testers (spouses, friends, dealer technicians, etc.), ie. those with no expectations what-so-ever notice the differences as they didn't even know it was done! I would expect that it's the drivers that don't notice the subtle changes in their cars, ie. those not as in tune, to not notice the changes that grounding can make. Maybe it's these drivers that are saying that grounding does nothing!

Simply because we cannot prove that something works, or how it works, does not negate evidence that it does. It's often the theory that's inadequate, which in the scientific process, requires the development of a newer theory. It's interesting to note that most will blindly confirm to their satisfaction that the mod they believe or just spent money on showed a 2 to 5 hp increase in magazine testing, but when the same mags show 5 to 16 hp differences with grounding, because you don't believe in it, or can't undeerstand the concept behind it, you'd write off the testing as faulty! Whose biases are really at issue here?

If you don't know, let others decide for themselves with a more open mind! Why attack something just because you don't believe in it or don't understand it.

The Dark Ages are filled with zealots that persecuted new ideas and knowledge, and they too were backed by the wisdom of the times.

 

This whole thing reminds me of a similar thing in psychiatry. Electro-convulsive therapy was used way back as an accidental treatment discovered to help certain mental conditions. They started using it for everything (One Flew over the Cuckoo’s Nest) whether appropriate or not. We didn’t really understand how it worked at the time, but it seemed to for some, and would work miracles for others.

Well, it’s a long story, but we do now have theories and proofs, and it’s shown to be an effective and safe treatment for certain conditions! Yet it’s banned in several states! Why? Because of public perception of what it does (it’s not punishment!!!) and the lack of knowledge of the theories and efficacy of the treatment! So-called experts stood up and denounced this as voodoo, etc. Let me tell you, a psychologist, social worker, nurse, or psychotherapist (no offense Gord) is NOT an expert in medications, nor with treatments like ECT! Even some psychiatrists that should know better refute ECT as a valid current treatment for the few conditions where it can be the only effective treatment for some patients! It’s usually these that shout the loudest, and because it conforms to public perception, are heard despite the evidence. And many patients that could benefit from this, endure on-going darkness or even suicide just because of ignorance and perception. Pills are more accepted, because most of us think we sort of know how they work, and they make sense to us, just as how we think that a CAI will work because it makes sense that more air = more power. Many have found otherwise.

Traditional treatments like herbs and accupuncture were widely denounced by the medical community not too many years ago, until new theories and ways of measuring things like endorphines were developed. Now, with better research, new techniques, etc., we can now purify the components of the effective ingredients of the old treatments!

Before the invention of the microscope, the old doctors laughed at the idea of sterilizing an operating room and instruments since no one could prove that microorganisms existed!

Grounding is funny, because most of us have at least a rudimentary knowledge of how electricity works. So when something comes along that is perceived to be simple to do, we all think that we can either do it ourselves or buy them off e-bay to save money (made by guys that do no R&D, and it’s a great way to make a bundle!) Sure, wires seem simple enough to buy, assemble, etc. But how many of you know how difficult it is to actually do scientific R&D, and ENGINEER something that works?!! I'd bet that most of you that are trying your own kits are using the grounding points developed on this forum! Too bad you can't reproduce or be privy to the research done re wire configuratons, and construction (engineering). Maybe some of you might actuall find it works (if it doesn't already).

So people will pay $600 for things like lights, etc. and then cheap out by buying inferior grounding products or plenum gaskets instead of an engineered spacer, and then will complain that it mod is useless!

Maybe I’m just owly today because I had several cancellations. But some of your so-called experts are getting under my normally thick skin!

 

The fact that blind testers can tell it's smoother without you asking them is hard to swallow. Again if that was true, as my g/f can barely tell if I'm driving on a flat tire or not, then it would be pretty darn easy to prove from a technical standpoint or from some experiment that there is a difference. Whether it be from some vibration meter, sound meter, timing device, whatever it may be. It sounds like this is what's happening:

owner: "Hey I just installed these new wires on my car, doesn't it feel smoother?"

passenger: "Hmm, actually yeah it does seem smoother."

Passenger is saying that for two reasons: A) Maybe the passenger never really paid attention to the level of smoothness because they really never cared. When they do pay attention they realize the car is pretty darn smooth. I mean it is an Infiniti right?

or

B) They feel sorry for the owner so they don't want to say what they may be feeling, "I really don't notice anything different.'

Chances are they're not noticing it out of the blue, and if anyone says they are it's either a freak thing or someone is making it up. There's just SOOOO much debating over this on ALL communities that if it was as obvious as you say, then someone/something/some manufacturer would've proven it's validity.

I haven't owned one or used one so I'm not saying IT DOESN'T WORK, just that it's hard to believe no one can prove anything conclusively with all the effort and attention that has been placed on this thing. That's enough for me to hold-off right now, and I tihnk DaveB feels the same way.

 

I agree with Brian V. Give me empirical evidence of some type. Perceptions and emotions can create a variety of responses. Measured tests would be consistent - where are they?

An engine is an inert object. You can't compare grounding to therapy on humans, a much more complex subject. It is not advanced bioengineering, its simple electrical flow resistence. It shouldn’t take a PhD to figure this out.

 

My comments on placebo effect were not a comparison between humans and machines, I don't think ckg35 missed it either but he clearly felt the need to show-off his wisdom in the subject matter.

I was simply trying to state that after people install mods, they tend to WANT to believe it made a difference so they notice things they hadn't noticed before on a sub-conscious level. True, mods that make more noise (like exhaust) often make you feel like you're going faster, but even things like grounding gear can make you feel this way (aka placebo effect). There's been countless threads about people feeling/thinking their car is faster after an oil change. In most cases, a regular oil change (3,000 miles or so) will not be a difference noticably, and on the dyno it makes less then a 1/2 HP difference which is unmeasureable by any human's senses. However, since the oil was changed the driver thinks the engine is running smoother and therefore it feels faster to them (placebo effect). Due to the lack of any proven data and the degree of arguments on this subject matter, I think placebo effect is the most obvious explanation for the way 'MOST' (not all, but most) people think grounding equipment is effective.

 

How's this, BrianV....I'm interested in a grounding kit from Gordgee. You buy the kit, put it on, write up your impressions. If you don't like it, i'll buy it from you at 90% of the sale price (if in good shape). Your total risk is like 10 bucks (+shipping), and we get a review from a skeptic. I think everyone is happy, no? PM me for contact info, paypal, etc. if interested.

 

ChicagoX, I care more about my time off then I do about installing them. Then, for me to remove them because I'm not going to notice anything means I spend twice the time.

While at work I can sit here and post stuff and I'm getting paid for doing so, but on my weekends, installing grounding wires is a waste of my time. I've had friends install them and I haven't noticed any difference before and after, I don't need to test it. Like I said before, even if there is a difference, it's so miniscule that it's not worth the time or $10 + shipping.

 

Right. Chicago offers to show the man the money and he just wants to blab about what he can't IMAGINE working.

So if it's not explained or proven to work, rather, disproven to not work, then it assumed to be the placebo affect. Assuming there are no realizable changes to the grounded car when you haven't used or tried the wires is absurd, And assuming the lack of proof = placebo effect is a bigger a stretch than assuming they work without proof. You little placebo scenario is not at all what we have experinced. And if your wo(man) can't tell when there is flat tire then (s)he would be a great test case for this as my GF can't tell the difference between a flat and a overinflated tire but she sure could tell when the trasmsission wasn't clunky all of a sudden - without me saying anything. I guess some people know what they are talking about from experience and some are just into being heard.

For all you new people considering this mod be aware of those who know only of what they think they know when it amounts to nothing from actual experience. I wouldn't take advice to not buy a digital camera from someone who has never owned one - same thing here. Speak from a base of experience before you trample the reviews of others with that experience and stop guessing. You are wasting time for people who are serious modders and simply wrong.

 

What part of, "I've had friends try it where I noticed no difference" did you miss? I have had experience with these things, I've experienced other people using them, so I do have some credibility on the subject matter.

The fact that these simple ground wires fixed your tranmission from clunking to not clunking is hard to swallow, I think Infiniti would know about that work around by now. There are other variables to consider regarding the transmission including temperature, oil, etc.

We clearly have different opinions on this point, it's not worth arguing anymore. The readers can determine what they want from seeing both of our stances. As much as you attack my not trying it, I attack your inability to actually prove it did anything other then relying on your (and other's) human senses which are probably the worst guage out there.

 

[QUOTE=BrianV]My comments on placebo effect were not a comparison between humans and machines, I don't think ckg35 missed it either but he clearly felt the need to show-off his wisdom in the subject matter. QUOTE]

I know you weren't comparing people and engines. I just think comparing 'unknown benefits' of grounding to 'unknown benefits' of electro shock thearpy is a terrible stretch. One is much more complex than the other.

 

Ahh, I didn't read all of ckg's posts because they were so ridiculously off-tangent so that's why I misunderstood you. I agree though!

 

we really should just do a double blind test to check the effects of the grounding kit.

 

If you haven't tried the Grounding Gear 7-10 wire kit or something extremely similar in quality and in 4 guage then you haven't really tried it. And at this point even if you did go try that version your argument is probably more important than anything else. More than one race team swears by them so they have placebo problems to eh. Your right this going no where fast. Arguing whether perceptible changes are placebo is pointless when the counterparty has not experienced them on thier own car with the actual product.

 

And there's probably 100 race teams that don't use them, again what's your point, nothing anyone can say (EITHER WAY) is conclusive, and since no one can say anything conclusive I CHOOSE to think it must not be worthwhile then.

 

How about I cover 100% AND shipping. I am just interested in getting a review from someone who is going into this knowing the mod won't work. That way, if there ARE positive results, they would have to be apparent. I am in no way affiliated with any manufacturer or vendor, FWIW. If that isn't enough, let me know what your time is worth.