All AWD car tests 0-60 are always really low and the 1/4 is always slower. Why is this? Because of higher RPM launches and better 60 ft. Seems to me I seem to have more knowledge of how a car acts at the track than you. You should know this, but its obvious you want to deny the fact that AWD is better than RWD at the track.

 

I thought AWD helps car's launch because they don't allow the tires to spin as much???

 

Dude, I am hoping you are posting this as a joke.

Your post makes no sense whatsoever, and I'll assume on a Friday night you're drinking heavily or smoking crack. Let me know which. Either way, you are WRONG, and I'm willing to prove it....

.

 

That is correct. Why do you think the saying came from. Never race a AWD car from a stop, because you will get owned.

 

No sir, I am 100% correct. You need to learn more on car physics and awd before spewing more bs.

Oh yea, and grow up if you think other people do that because we don't agree with you. FYI, do a search.

 

I have proven race time at the track, which I am willing to prove...

It's pretty obvious to me you do not have the same... If you're willing to challenge my credentials, please, let's have at it....

 

This isn't about your proof that you been at the track. It's about you proving that RWD is better than AWD on a 0-60/60ft race. You have yet to prove this.

No, you need to prove to everyone else including myself why with facts that RWD is better. Because all AWD cars launch faster and better than FWD/RWD period. This is a fact. You can do a search anywhere on the net for this.

I am done argueing with someone who has no clue what he is talking about.

 

This is actually the funniest post I've ever had. Do you want me to forward this to SERIOUS racers??? If so, I'd be glad to...Just as a caution...If I forward this to my LS1 buddies, you will be laughed out of their forum. If I forward this to the Volvo board, much the same....Even the AWD forums would get a kick out of this.

I really hope no one has relied on this guys advice in the past, because it is VERY sad....Once he sobers up, or simply comes to reality, for whatever reason, I'd be glad to discuss.

 

FYI, I owned a 99 TA 6MT. I know about serious racing. I also know Mike Marillo. Do you? If not, he owns the fastest Mustang in the U.S.

Umm, relied? How long have I been here compared to you? How old am I compared to you? Thats enough to answer anyones question. Have a nice day noob.

 

Welcome to the G family and the web site. You'll enjoy the car and the company here.

 

You're longevity on this board does not impress me or any others here. I am confident that my experience with cars, and my willingness to prove that, will far surpass your inexperienced reply...You are obviously a very young, inexperienced fellow....I have been on more car boards than you can imagine...If you want to press me, bring it.......

Have a great day.................

 

Oh really, and you speak for everyone here right? Sure it does, you proved your knowledge that RWD cars are better than AWD cars in 60 fts, etc. Wrong. And you have yet to prove it. We are still waiting. I called you out, so show us the facts. Until then shut up and enjoy the g35 site.

Very young? LOL. I have been racing for 15 years. That should give you a idea of how old I am.

 

This article owns you:

FWD vs RWD vs AWD
Okay, I'll have a go at writing something as definitive as I can make it on this subject. Hopefully it'll help! One big problem with doing it that I'll have to generalise a fair bit when it comes to suspension geometry & set-up, driver ability, etc. So what I'll try to do is to go through the generalised stuff first then be a bit more specific to try to give a big picture. The horsepower divisions I've made are my own arbritray ones, others may dissagree. Later on I'll talk briefly about some actual examples that may not agree with what I've said here, and why. And of course all of this in IMHO, so if you have anything to add please do.

One thing that's important to understand before I get started is to understand the difference between road holding and handling; they are quite separate things but closely related. Road holding is simply the G-force that the car makes in a corner, and so it doesn't matter if the car is badly under or oversteering. However, if the car is badly under or oversteering it may well limit the maximum cornering power, or road holding.

Generalised stuff

FWD

Drivetrain losses are about 17% - 22% at an educated guess.
A rough weight distribution of 55/60% front to 45/40% rear.
The complete car will weigh roughly 30kg - 40kg less than a RWD, and about 60kg - 80kg less than a 4WD.

RWD

Drivetrain losses are about 24% - 30% at an educated guess.
A rough weigh distribution of about 48/53% front to 52/47% rear.

4WD

Drivetrain losses are about 35% - 40% odd.
A rough weight distribution of about 48/53% front to 52/47% rear, though this tend to be less important.
Torque split front/rear is a significant factor in handling.



Low power (up to 100hp)

FWD


Straight line
This will be the fastest car as although it has the least traction out of the three it doesn't have enough power to really smoke the tyres badly. It'll also have the most power at the wheels as it has the least losses.


Top speed
Also the highest due to the least losses.


Braking
Not allowing for engine braking assist, FWD will be the worst due to the most forward weight distribution, thus reducing the braking ability of the rear wheels. Allowing for engine braking assist, it'll also be quite good and nearly as good as the 4WD.


Stability
Almost equal with 4WD due to the forward weight distribution. "Flight of the lead-tipped arrow" is the way to describe it, as the car that has the most weight up the front will have the pendulum effect to keep the car going straight. (big generalisation, I know, but it'll do for the moment)


Cornering
In theory the slowest, but in practice not a heck of a lot of difference between all the types. It's tough to describe without any diagrams but when a car - of any type of drive - is cornering on the limit then all four tyres will be slipping at about a 7° (roughly) angle to the road. This is a result of a thing called the 'traction circle', which I won't get into at the moment, but what it means is that in a stable situation with the car very near the limit of the tyres, if you add power in a FWD then the available lateral traction of the front tyres will be exceeded and so the car will start to understeer. The more power you add, regardless of the steering wheel angle, the more the car will understeer.
This effect varies with the speed of the car naturally, with it being greatest at high speed. At very slow speeds the front tyres tend to dominate and still pull the front around anyway. It's also why the front end of a FWD tucks back in when you lift off the throttle. (as well as weight transfer with deceleration)
And again this is a generalisation, not taking into account the modern clever active LSD's, suspension geometry, etc. They have a significant effect on the way a FWD behaves, and for example with the superb active LSD that the Honda Integra Type R has it can alter the torque of the left and right front wheels to give the outside wheel the most torque, hence the more power you use the more it goes to the most heavily loaded wheel, which of course has little chance of spinning and so cause understeer.


Ease of set-up
Probably not a great deal different to the other types, though to get the best it requires careful balance of the front and rear spring rates, and also F/R anti-roll bars. There can be a wide difference between wheel rates front to rear to get a good handling car.


Effect of total weight
The most affected of the three types, as it has the greatest effect of the weight on the front wheels. Lighter is always better.


Cost
By far the cheapest of the lot to produce, and this, along with the inherant stability of the low power FWD make it the main choice of manufacturers. If they want to make a 'sporty' version of the car, all they usually do is add some sort of LSD to the front (viscous, active, etc) and that generally tunes out most of the nasties from them. They also have the most room inside, which naturally the manufacturers and public like.





RWD


Straight line
Second fastest of course, though about equal in the initial jump off the line with the 4WD.


Top speed
Second fastest again.


Braking
They have the most rearward weight distribution, so they will pull up the best as the weight transfers to the front under heavy braking. If the driver doesn't match engine revs when downchanging though, the rear will lose grip when the clutch is let out and so the rearward weight will work against the car making the corner facing in the right direction.


Stability
Worst of the three due to the majority of the mass being rearwards. (on some cars) A good driver actually turns this into an advantage, as it allows better control of the car when on the limit in corners, and also for direction changes between corners.


Cornering
Probably a little better than FWD due to the slip angle on the rears increasing at the limit when adding more power, thus making the car oversteer a little. In theory, a touch of oversteer is the fastest way through a corner but it may not always be the case in practice, as the cars (all types) that tend to oversteer also tend to have that amount of oversteer vary with speed.


Ease of set-up
A lot of variable again, but there is usually a wide variation that can be used quite successfully. The variation between front and rear wheel rates is usually a lot less than FWD, and perhaps much the same as 4WD's. This is one reason why RWD's also tend to wear down the front and rear tyres more evenly than a FWD.


Effect of total weight
Fairly insensitive, to a point. Lighter is always better.


Cost
Second most expensive to produce. Depending on the rear suspension, they may have a fair bit of boot space taken up (like the AE-86) to allow the diff housing the move around. There's also a tailshaft tunnel.





4WD


Straight line
The slowest of all due to the highest losses in the drivetrain. Maybe the fastest off the line because there's zero wheelspin, but this also infers that the engine tends to bog down. Good drivers can slip the clutch just the right amount to keep the engine spinning. (not good for the clutch though!)


Top speed
For obvious reasons, the slowest.


Braking
Roughly in between the FWD and RWD, but as it's darn near impossible to have all four wheels lock up if the clutch is let out at the wrong time it makes them quite safe and stable.


Stability
Again, when corning at the limit of the tyres if you add power the traction limit will be exceeded. In the 4WD's case though, they all tend to start to let go at the same time and so the car will tend to four wheel drift a little. However, it does depend on the torque split front/rear, but in most of the lower powered 4WD's they usually have a 50/50 split. For reasons that I'll explain later though, that tends to make the car understeer more ...


Ease of set-up
Probably tending to be more like the FWD in terms of difficulty, but with more like RWD rates, etc.


Effect of total weight
Quite insensitive. Lighter is always better.


Cost
Due to having components of FWD and RWD, they naturally tend to cost the most to make.





Summary - low power

Depending a lot on what you want the car for.

Public
FWD wins every time.


Club work
Whatever you prefer. I learned to drive in a RWD, and I find it very difficult to drive FWD's quickly. They can be driven very quickly indeed, but it does seem to require a touch more skill to do so. Left foot braking to stabilise the car and control the car is often needed. 4WD's tend to behave more like FWD's, and so you've come off a FWD then you'll be better off than a RWD driver. In motorkhana's, FWD's are very hard to beat indeed.


Racing
FWD or RWD, again take your pick as you have to trade off between power at the wheels and cornering power and braking ability. Since low power cars tend to do better with even a slight amount of extra power, FWD would seem to be best here.

 

Medium power (150hp to 250hp)

FWD


Straight line
Initially the slowest of the lot due to wheelspin (and that is subject to driver ability!) but once the car is up into 2nd gear there again is that slight advantage of power at the wheels over the other two types. But by that time, usually, the other two have pulled out enough distance so that over the 400metres they can't be caught. Also, if the FWD is traction limited when hitting 2nd gear that will also badly affect the acceleration. Good LSD's again help a lot here.


Top speed
As mentioned above.


Braking
As mentioned above.


Stability
Increasingly worse with more power, as the car is getting to the point where it's able to spin both fronts in corners. This is where the clever LSD's really start to be needed to get the most out of the car. Turboed engines even more so, as the torque rises rather more quickly with engine revs than a naturally aspirated engine does.


Ease of set-up
This is where the FWD's start to become a problem, as you start to have to really compromise things to keep the front end stuck to the ground. Softer springs in the front, stiffer in the rear, etc.


Effect of total weight
Again this is where the FWD's have to start compromising between adding weight to the front to make it stick or having too much weight in the front that makes them understeer more. More weight in the back helps the balance, but reduces traction. Lighter is always better.


Cost
As mentioned above. CV joints that're strong enough start to become a problem.





RWD


Straight line
Getting to the point where traction can start to be a problem, depending on the rear suspension and driver ability.


Top speed
As mentioned above.


Braking
As mentioned above.


Stability
As a general rule, the more power a RWD has the more rearward the weight distribution should be. This is to keep the weight on the rears when cornering hard, to help them stick. This naturally tends to make the car suffer from the pendulum effect even more, so once again some sort of compromise must be made. This is usually made by the driver working the throttle and steering to control the oversteer. LSD's help, though no special ones other than a plain old Salisbury (friction plate) type is often needed.


Ease of set-up
Not all that hard, and again the wheel rates are usually much the same front to rear. Playing with wheel & tyre widths on the rear, front offset, etc, is all a factor in fine tuning. (These same thing apply to FWD's as well)


Effect of total weight
Starting to be a factor. The heavier the car the more the tyres get worked, so as usual the lighter the better.


Cost
Starting to swing towards RWD, as there are not all that many FWD type gearboxes that can handle up around 250hp+. RWD gearboxes are still pretty easy to get that can handle that power. They do, however, weigh a fair bit.





4WD


Straight line
Starting to get hard to beat, as they will start to have enough power to keep the engine spinning along with the wheels until it gets moving. Not always the case though. Otherwise as mentioned above.


Top speed
As mentioned above.


Braking
As mentioned above.


Stability
Ever increasing reliance on the torque split, but generally pretty good. 4WD cars with this much power tend to have more rear bias on the torque, and so also tend to be more stable when working the throttle in corners when on the limit. It also means that you can start to drive the car on the throttle to control the attitude.


Ease of set-up
Pretty much the same as mentioned before, though more attention to LSD ratios, etc, to control on-the-limit under/oversteer.


Cost
Still the most expensive.





Summary - medium power


Public
Take your pick really.


Club work
Again personal preferance, but it depends on what the car is to be used for. Sometime FWD is best, sometimes RWD, sometimes 4WD.


Racing
RWD or maybe 4WD wins every time. The ability to really drive the car through the corners is where RWD is best, but the sheer traction of 4WD can also be a good thing.

 

High power (300hp+)

FWD


Straight line
HP for HP, the FWD will be the slowest here as they just can't put the power to the ground. (Unless they are specifically set-up for dragging in a straight line, but they'll still be spinning wheels when the other two types are pulling away with all the traction they can handle)


Top speed
As mentioned above, though the really high power cars all tend to be either RWD or 4WD.


Braking
As mentioned above.


Stability
The worst of the lot, as high power cars also tend to have lots of torque, and so keeping the fronts under control tends to dominate the entire chassis set-up. This tends to compromise the car into being a 'one type' car, ie, it's set-up for rally, road, or race, but is only good at the one thing at a time. That's true to a certain extent with all the cars of different types, but even more so with FWD's.


Ease of set-up
Becoming very difficult, as mentioned just above because the chassis has to be set-up around keeping the front tyres on the road, at the expense of a lot of other things such as ride height, ride stiffness, etc. They also tend to wear down front tyres at a fearsome rate compared to the rears. They also typically require much softer rear tyre compounds, to try to get them up to temperature, but again this is a compromise as you can't have the rear sticking too much as it increases the understeer ... as I said, it's hard work!


Cost
Lots - Starting to need rather strong gearboxes here, big soft front tyres, much work on suspension, etc.





RWD


Straight line
Traction starting to become a bit of a problem, but wider tyres & driver control help a lot.


Top speed
As mentioned above.


Braking
As mentioned above.


Stability
Very dependant on suspension, etc, and so varies from rather twitchy to quite good. Lots of power allows the driver to control the attitude of the car quite well though, and so with good throttle control corners of any speed can be taken pretty much as desired.


Ease of set-up
Tending to favour work done on the rear, to keep the tyres stuck to the ground. Rear tyres tend to wear a lot faster than fronts.


Cost
Also getting high, as big gearboxes, diffs, axles, etc are needed.





4WD


Straight line
Impossible to beat, with their great traction off the line giving them too much of a jump over the other two types.


Top speed
As mentioned above.


Braking
As mentioned above.


Stability
Still pretty good, though there is starting to be enough power to spin all the wheels, hence they're often set-up to have more rear bias with the centre diff torque split, so as to give a bit of warning that the whole thing is going to start moving sideways.


Ease of set-up
Usually just fine tuning from lower power set-ups. A lot of the high power 4WD's such as the WRX's, Skylines, etc, have fairly stock geometry and only really fiddle with ride heights, spring rates, dampers, etc.


Cost
Ouch! The great traction they have really kills the gearboxes, so very strong ones are needed, as are the half-shafts, etc. The cars also tend to be relatively heavy, so big brakes are often fitted.





Summary - high power


Public
High power cars and the general public probably should not be allowed, but unfortunately it does from time to time. Just forget big HP FWD's with the public, as they would be wrapping themselves around telephone poles faster than they already do now. Wet roads would see mass slaughter! RWD is liveable, but again it requires a bit of talent to keep under control. Wet roads are again a big problem though. 4WD has to be the winner here, as it allows the average bloke/blokette to drive around in relative safety.


Club work
There's not a lot of applications for high power FWD's here, as for example in a motorkhana it would be rather difficult to control the wheelspin & related understeer. Most club stuff involves accelerating from a fairly slow speed, so wheelspin is always going to be a killer. RWD can be quite good, but again it requires a good driver to get the most out of it. 4WD is fairly idiot-proof, but it's still no substitute for a good driver. It can also get you into trouble rather quickly, but you're more likely to be able to get out of it in such cases.


Racing
RWD or 4WD works very well, depending on the rules and how much power you have.