Actually I've never met or spoken with Tony, I'm norcal he is socal I believe. My initial interest in plenum mods for the G started before the current spacers were even being talked about, before I even bought my G. I was seriously looking at a Crawford, but was hesitant to ditch my engine cover because I wanted to keep a stock look. So I held off for a while, then I read about this spacer idea which peaked my interest. I was a lurker on My350 until I saw Crawford come out mocking the spacer idea with their gaskets, which I thought was a pretty low blow and certainly an insult to the two groups that were working on those parts. I was just trying to keep them honest and remain objective.

You would be suprised at the number of PMs I got from people telling me that I said exactly what needed to be said, but since Crawford has such a loyal cult-like following who basically takes everything Crawford says as gospel, anyone questioning them would be committing social suicide on that board. I guess it's pretty obvious how concerned I was about that

Oh look, it's my two pals pasta and daveb. Are you guys like always together or something? LOL

 

Hello buddy First off do not bring the Crawford deal here. I have not said a word about it. and Im holding back on my install.
And before you bring daveb into this let me tell ya he may have many steps ahead of most. you must be one of the guys that just attack what you do not understand. This thread is just Crazy. You people attack the Neffster. And he did nothing but asked great questions. And you want to attact me and Daveb. Let me ask you a question what is your point. Ya the the truth scares you. There is no way the spacer is magic and

 

Hello buddy First off do not bring the Crawford deal here. I have not said a word about it. and Im holding back on my install.
And before you bring daveb into this let me tell ya he may have many steps ahead of most. you must be one of the guys that just attack what you do not understand. This thread is just Crazy. You people attack the Neffster. And he did nothing but asked great questions. And you want to attact me and Daveb. Let me ask you a question what is your point. Ya the the truth scares you. There is no way the spacer is magic and Im sorry Mr. Tony You need to step up yo the plate and tell the bulls **** lie that your spacer is just pie in the sky. The facts will set you free. There is no way your spacer will balance the intake. Your good buddies out there are starting to shine a bright light on you. Im sure tony is a good guy but Im just waiting for his reply. Hello copbait fill in the lines. Your buddy always Pasta

 

Dude I was just joking about you and dave because it's us three that are going back and forth in the pulley thread, I just thought it was a funny coincidence to see both of you chime in here at the same time.

Second, I thought it might be useful to clarify my comments on My350 with Crawford, because it was brought up by Neff and I was mentioned specifically in his post (which was cool no prob with that, I just wanted to clarify my intentions and also state that I do not know Tony personally as was implied). Please don't tell me what I can and cannot say, because I don't answer to you and never will.

Lastly, I have never attacked Neffster and see no reason to. Sure I thought that maybe he was a bit harsh in that one thread and basically said as much, but I definitely have no hard feelings towards him. Actually in a way I can appreciate his vigor, I think his intentions were mainly to protect forum members from a shady vendor, although I am still not convinced as I have not seen any evidence supporting that.

So basically just chill a little, stop blowing things out of proportion because from what I can see you are the only one freaking here.

 

I'm glad that you finally commented on this. I have consulted several engineers that know something about flow and their reaction was very similar. One actually said to me "What's with all the right angles? Is that a cake mold or an intake manifold?" I thought it was a great line and it actually rhymes too

If people think that those corners allow for optimal flow and pressure then they are really fooling themselves. I've never taken any fluid dyamics or whatever courses and it even seems logical to my simple mind. That is why I thought the results you reported early on about showing more gains than a Crawford were believable.

 

I only walk behide you because you set the stage. I truley have compassion like neffster and do not want to speek for him. Like move on and learn. Im a old guy and Im blessed with young guys around me. But you all are still stupid in my mine. I will chill if you do. Your friend Dennis

 

Calm down people, it's pointless to argue over performance data from 'concepts' and 'proposed gains.' We need a comparison test where all the plenum options are tested on the same car, on the say dyno, the same day under similar conditions.

Tony has done so in an independent dyno facility and came up with some interesting numbers. Crawford on the other hand stacked a bunch of gaskets together and claims it would be the same as a spacer, and then went on to put down the spacer idea.

Neff, I think some people are critical of your comments because you are comparing these two mods based solely on what Crawford told you. If you manage to get a plenum spacer and compare it head to head against the Crawford plenum, I'm sure the results will speak for itself.

 

Hey headlight buddie. How's the project goin'?

Anyway, you're correct and I clearly stated in my post above that I was partial to Crawford for several important reasons. I did not attempt to hide this. Doug has taken the time to discuss with me the cons of the gasket, the cons of the 6 posts in the stock plenum, the pressure drop inconsistancies with the stock set up, etc. There have been more than a few requests from various people on driver and my350z.com for Hydrazine to post the PROOF that the spacer "balances air flow" as well as (or better than) the Crawford Plenum. This has yet to happen which only make Doug's arguement more convincing since he says he flow benched the spacer concept about 2 years ago.

It would be interesting to see the Plenum Spacer go up against the Crawford Plenum on a car with the Crawford Headers and the Crawford Cats on a dyno. This would be an easy way to see if the flow was truly better w/o having to worry about flow bench results being released.

If Hydrazine is telling the truth he SHOULD post 2 things. First, he should post the stock flow bench results, secondly, he should post his plenum gasket flow bench results. Then we can all compare the two tests, evaluate the test set up to see if it is resonable, etc. I will then get Doug Stewart to post his stock flow bench results (which should be identical to Tony's) and then compare the final results of the Crawford Plenum vs the spacer.

Do I think that this will ever happen? Sadly, no.

Am I ticked off that I've yet to receive an apology from the guy who incorrectly accused me of things I did not do in a public internet forum in an attempt to belittle my comments? You betchya'.

Does this persons negative comments directed toward me make his product any better or his results any more believable? NO!

Does this type of treatment make you question his intentions? It sure makes me question them.

-Neffster

 

I think if you're going to do a flow bench comparison between the Crawford and a spacer, you would at the very least need to do everything on the same setup in order for it to be valid though right? Otherwise it's no more reliable than trying to compare dyno runs from different machines. Sure each may show their own deltas relative to the baseline, but the baseline itself could easily be manipulated or inadvertently configured in ways to skew the results in some way.

I think back to back dyno runs with these mods is probably the only way to do a valid comparison. Trying to accurately reproduce this engine's airflow throughout the entire RPM range with a flow bench setup just seems like a very difficult task to me, but what do I know.

 

I dont think most members on this forum CARE about flow bench testing etc. When it comes to performance mods. What we want is something that (in order of importance) wont jeopardize safety/reliability, everyday driveability, wont void manuf. warranty, and obviously "the performance can be 'proven' to us on a dyno", and if the mod lets us 'feel' the difference then even better. Lets be honest, neglecting everything else for performance mods, end of the day the numbers matter most, after we have seen the part is safe/reliable. Any time a well respected manufacturer justifies a performance parts existence as crawford did w/ the plenum, they declared the front two cylinders were starved for air (or something of that nature) and therefore they developed their plenum to improve air flow to the front two by creating a plenum w/ a raised surface (which also increased HP). Although I am sure Crawfords plenum increases volume AND flow and there is no data to suggest a spacer balances air flow. But it just comes down to the numbers, as most people could care less HOW it provides the gain as long as it does. As an example take an exhaust manufacturer stating the stock exhaust is restrictive due to a bend which is too severe in the stock mid pipe. I dont care how the flow is improved or what the gas smells like being released, my main concern is performance and if a company can develop something to improve upon stock and if it can be shown on a dyno than, im a happy camper. (here's the part where you say how the exhaust coming out is no where near as significant as the air going in, just for the sake of argument so I got you covered) As far as I know, there is YET to be one member on the 80+ (last i checked) list on the motordyne group buy to be unsatisfied w/ the product or to complain in regards to its performance (and please dont go searching for that ONE spacer that cracked or the ONE customer who had a problem to try to prove me wrong b/c there's always unhappy customers not matter what you do). My point? Numbers do all the talking as do happy customer's who are willing to pay and put their trust in the manufacturer and promote the manufacturer's parts. I am completely satisfied with the plenum spacer and highly recommend this product to everyone, and IMO its the BEST performance mod for the price.

 

Good Point. That's why the dyno test method was mentioned above.

The message I meant to convey was this...

I just want to see if the flow is equal in all 6 of the manifold chambers with the plenum spacer. Crawford claims ~30% pressure drop (or poor flow) with the stock plenum. They also claim that unless the front part of the plenum is raised to be even with the back of the plenum that the air flow is not equalized.

Hydrazine said that the flow WAS equalized with a spacer and an OEM angled plenum which contradicts Crawfords claims.

One of these 2 individuals is wrong and all I want to know is who is wrong. If hydrazine is correct then he should want to post evidence to support his findings and clear the air. To date this has not happened and thus only helps to prove Crawfords original comments which were made ~2 years ago.

 

To GeePasta and DaveB:

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing..."

If that is true, you guys are in serious danger.

 

Hey ya Neff,

I doubt there is really an issue in what you request.... you have a lot of guys in your car club right.

2 quick thoughts......
1) The spacer(and Tony) claimed basically the same thing Crawford claimed, i.e. that this product improved performance (can we agree on that basic point).
as far as proving the design work, posting the test, engineering results, etc... Crawford has never done that, yet you expect Tony to do that.... So the question is why would you believe Crawford over Tony ? well simple preference, OK, you know and talk to him, well Ok, all fine... but you are hammering on Tony for NOT doing things Crawford has never done (like posting engineering data)

2) Doing the dyno on a car with Crawford Headers, and Crawford cats is a fine idea, as long as you also do it on a stock car with both plenum mods, i.e. you need baselines

I will be looking forward to seeing your results from these tests you desire, as well as look forward to seeing crawford post all engineering data (first - as you seem so interested) then we'll what comes of it all

 

Here's .02

Tony send Neffster a spacer to test. Based on the quote above (and what others are experiencing with the spacer), it should not be a problem to prove. [but I understand marketing, so that may/or may not be a good idea. It just depends on the person's intent with your product]

The bottom line is, does the diffences in airflow, whp, design, etc, etc. offset the difference in $$ ? IMHO - I don't think so.

If the spacer is determined to seriously SCREW things up, It is very simple to return to stock before taking the car for service.

Life goes on....there should be more important things to worry about. I take the macro management approach..

 

Now now Buddy red light green light. What are you talking about?
I have never been so happy in my life. Its fun to live with a little danger.
Its even funner to live danger with knowledge. I quess you can not play with me because I scare you.