I thought that those of you who are wanting to switch over to synthetic oil might find this interesting...

Amsoil vs Mobil 1

John

 

I dont think anybody would have argued that AMSOIL is not the best.

Yes it is better than mobil 1 but it costs much more and is overkill for people who change their oil every 3000.

But if you have money to burn go with AMSOIL because you definately get the best but Mobil 1 is good enough for me and what i need it for.

Dan O

 

I agree. Amsoil is great stuff, but let's say you do regular oil at 3000mil intervals v. Amsoil at 1year intervals (because they recommend changing at least once every year, if you don't drive 25k within that year). Let's assume 15k/year. The dino oil still costs less than the one oil change with Amsoil (assuming you do the change yourself, and don't add dealer labor). You still need to change the oil filter often, as I don't think even Amsoil's filter can go that long, unless you augment it with a bypass filter.

The economical choice seems to be dino @ 3k, or Mobil 1 @ 7500. Of course, the environmental choice would be Amsoil once a year. And the "I'm an engine fanatic, and I don't care how much it costs" choice would be Amsoil every 3,000... but that would be a waste of money.

Amsoil is the economical choice for commercial vehicles that go 20-30k miles a year or more.

2003.5 G35 Sedan Desert Platinum/Graphite Premium/Sport/Aero/Nav/Winter

 

I agree with you for the most part Dan, but if you are an Amsoil preferred customer you can buy the oil for approx. $4.55/qt + $9.00 for an oil filter. Even if you change the oil every 3000 miles, the cost is only $40.00 assuming that you change your own oil. ($50 if you buy 2 filters - one for the initial change, and one add'l for 6 month interval change.)

Amsoil is the leader in extended drain intervals and with their 5W-30/10W-30/ and 10W-40 Original Synthetic Motor Oils you can safely and effectively extend your drain interval to 25,000 miles or 1 year of service. (change Amsoil SDF filter @ 12,500 miles or 6 months - change other brand filters at engine manufacturer's recommendation)

I have used Amsoil since 1999 in my wifes mini van using extended drains, and now have 60,000 trouble free miles. It is nice not having to change the oil so frequently, and I actually save money. I spend less than $50.00 a year for oil changes. [img]/w3timages/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Sure Amsoil is a little more money... but don't you want the best for your baby?

There are a bunch of good articles on the Amsoil website. The extended drain thing is new to most people, but if you do some research you will find that it is safe and effective.

John

 

So how does one become a preferred customer to avoid the $8/qt retail fee?

2003.5 G35 Sedan Desert Platinum/Graphite Premium/Sport/Aero/Nav/Winter

 

Like you said..change the SDF filter every 12500 miles....but a lot of people don't realize you need to pony a few dollars to buy a bypass filter system (or the dual remote bypass).

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the 4-ball scar test is a test designed for greases, not motor oils. Not too many people read the actual ASTM spec. Think of a situation in the engine that is lubricated (and cooled) by motor oil, where it may occur?

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Amsoil assembles excellent oil (using Exxon-Mobil for the PAO base stock) and Lubrizol for its additive package. The API certified oils that Amsoil markets are the semi synthetic XL-7500 series (7500 miles oil change interval), not the Series 2000, and others (aside from the PCO 15w40 for diesels). The additive package specified by Amsoil, contains too much phosphorus, which in exessive amounts, will cause glazing to the O2 sensors and the catalytic converter. The phosphorus is in ZDDP, an anti-wear additive commonly used.

The change from SJ to SL, one of the main changes is limiting the phosphorus levels about about (I think) 0.1%, across the board for all oil weights, to protect the emissions controls.

Mobil 1 needed a formula change in order to meet the new standards for API SL certification to get the starburst.

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Some of the fanatics will say big oil, that Amsoil cannot afford to get certified, as they are small company. They have certification for the XL 7500 series, why not the rest? You'll never get a straight answer from Amsoil.

The additive companies for the smaller brands of oil will get the oil certified for the API starburst, meeting the various specs, for them.

 

"So how does one become a preferred customer to avoid the $8/qt retail fee?"

If you go to their website, it explains it. Basically, you pay $20/year to be a preferred customer.

 

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

Originally posted by VNT:
Like you said..change the SDF filter every 12500 miles....but a lot of people don't realize you need to pony a few dollars to buy a bypass filter system (or the dual remote bypass).

<hr></blockquote> Not true... not true at all. You do not need a by-pass system to do extended drains. The Super Duty Oil Filters (SDF) are Amsoil Oil Filters composed of a special cellulose, synthetic and glass blend media, that provide a better flow of oil to engine components and superior contaminant removing effeciency as compared to most conventional filters that make use of paper as their filter material. By-pass filters can be used to remove contaminates of smaller microns and to extend the drain interval even further.

It is obvious that you have a great amount of knowledge about the testing and certification of oils, much stronger than my knowledge, so I can't comment on those statements. I'm sure that I can find out more by making a few phone calls if necessary to clear up any issues anyone might have.

John

 

Whoever is selling it for $8/qt is definately ripping everybody off. It should retail for $5.85/qt. I can see why you would shy away at those prices. [img]/w3timages/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

John

 

The Series 2000 stuff is over $8/qt on their website. The XL-7500 is $5-something. It's still pricey compared to a 97cent bottle of Castrol GTX at WalMart. I haven't priced Mobil 1 yet.

2003.5 G35 Sedan Desert Platinum/Graphite Premium/Sport/Aero/Nav/Winter

 

Amsoil is $5.85 retail (e.g. GI Joe's here in OR). I think Mobil 1 is usually $3.99. I just put Royal Purple syn engine oil in my G. It is priced about the same as Amsoil. Redline syn is quite a bit more at around $8/qt.

03.5 Sedan AT (Black-Willow-Premium-Sport-Aero)

 

Hastings is the supplier of Amsoil filters.

Amsoil doesn't bother replying to my emails anymore....

The whole point of the ZDDP and the emissions control systems...if they fail, don't rule out the motor oil you used.

There is the Amsoil air filter available, which is an oiled foam filter. Not exactly sure if it's their 2-stage or not.

 

Ok, sorry for the delay in posting this information but I was with a client all morning that was in from out of town and couldn't break away. Sorry for the length of this post, but it is some good information in response to VNT's allegations and mis-information.

There are several types of 4 ball tests, all with different ASTM numbers. Some for gear oils, some for grease, and some for lubricating oils. All have different perameters they are run by.

http://www.plint-tribology.fsnet.co....index/stds.htm

ASTM D 4172 Standard Test Method for Wear Preventive Characteristics of Lubricating Fluid (Four-Ball Method)

This is all from a dealer zone page on the Amsoil Website and answers all of the questions posted earlier.

http://www.amsoil.com/dealer/askamsoil/index.htm

<font color=red>AMSOIL API Licensing

Q. Why aren't all AMSOIL motor oils API licensed

A. Good question. AMSOIL staffers have recently read some message boards with misinformation regarding this issue. Let us address API licensing in depth, as well as the issue of warranties. Some AMSOIL motor oils are API licensed, some are not. If you're concerned about your warranty and feel pressures to use an API licensed oil, even after reading this answer, then the 5W-30 (XLF), 5W-20 (XLM) or 10W-30 (XLT) XL-7500 or our 15W-40 (PCO) API licensed oils should be your choice. If you are looking for an alternative to frequent oil changes or just want the best performing oil for your car, then one of our top tier non-API licensed synthetic oils are for you. Read on, and decide for yourself.

API Licensing - Passenger Cars - What is it?

An API (American Petroleum Institute) license indicates that a specific motor oil formulation has passed the minimum performance standards as defined by a series of laboratory bench, physical, chemical and engine tests. These tests were selected and minimum performance standards were set by the API Lubricants Committee to address specific areas such as engine wear, deposits, fuel economy, emissions, etc. The committee is comprised of representatives from automobile, oil and additive companies. The current specification is SJ/GF-2, and in July 2001 the first use of SL/GF-3 will begin.

Costs

The cost for running a test program for a single passenger car motor oil formulation is from $125,000 to $300,000, depending on if the formula passes the tests the first time through or requires multiple test runs or formula modifications to achieve a passing average. (That amount goes to $275,000 to $500,000 for a Heavy Duty Diesel licensing program on a specific formula.) Once that testing is complete and the formula has passed all of the minimum requirements, it can be licensed for $825 per year for non-members and $625 per year for members. There is also a small royalty fee per gallon sold for all gallons over one million. The length of time between new specifications is now approximately 2 to 3 years, which does not allow a great deal of time to recover testing costs.

Who Licenses What Formulas?

Additive companies, such as Lubrizol, Ethyl,, Infinium and Oronite, develop licensed formulas that they offer to oil companies to re-license. It is inexpensive to re-license one of these formulas, and the majority of oil companies choose to do this to avoid the costs associated with testing. This, however, tends to commoditize the market. The same chemistry is being sold under many brand names. Most of the major oil companies do have their own proprietary formulas developed, tested and licensed. All of AMSOIL INC.'s lubricant formulas are unique and proprietary.

Flexibility In Manufacturing An API Licensed Formula

API licensing was originally developed for mineral based oils, and it affords these oils more flexibility than synthetic oils.

Mineral oils comprised of group I and Group II petroleum basestocks may use a simple program called basestock interchange for added flexibility in manufacturing and purchasing. Interchange means that by completing the proper paperwork and running a few minor engine tests an oil company can choose to buy these petroleum basestocks from many different suppliers. This ensures adequate supply and competitive pricing. However, basestock interchange for Group III and V synthetic basestocks is not allowed. For example, if a formula was tested with an ester (Group V) basestock from a specific supplier, then anyone blending that formula must buy only that supplier's ester. Complete engine testing would need to be performed on the formula using another supplier's ester before an oil company could buy it from that alternative supplier. This additional testing is normally not performed because of the associated costs. This inflexibility makes it very difficult for synthetic lubricant manufacturers to negotiate prices with synthetic basestock suppliers. Click HERE for more information about Group I through Group V basestocks.

There is also something called viscosity grade read-across. Fortunately, this applies to both petroleum and synthetic basestocks although the better cold temperature performance of synthetics makes it more difficult to achieve in some situations. (That's another whole story.) What this means is that if you properly formulate the lubricant for which you have run all of the API tests, there are guidelines that allow you to use that same formula to make 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30, etc. viscosity motor oil.

Finally, there is a rule for substitutions in the CMA (Chemical Manufacturers Association) code of practice that allows a small degree of flexibility for all formulas. It allows a company to change the percentages of components in the formula by varying amounts from the original formula with limited testing and paperwork requirements. For example, if the licensed formula used 10% of a certain V.I. improver, you would have the ability to utilize from 9% to 11% of the same V.I. improver for your formula.

Key Limitations For API Licensed Formulas

Phosphorous content - .10% maximum
(API SL; 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30 viscosity grades, only)

NOACK volatility - 15% maximum

Click HERE for an explanation of NOACK Volatility

The prevalent sources of phosphorous in motor oils are additives called zinc dithiophosphates (ZDTPs). Currently, these versatile additives act as oxidation/corrosion inhibitors and aid in the ability of a lubricant to reduce wear. The automobile manufacturers, however, have demanded that lubricants contain a maximum of only .10% phosphorous. Their reason is that some manufacturers believe that higher phosphorous content levels will poison the catalytic converters on their cars before they reach 150,000 miles, which is the number of miles that their vehicles will be required to pass EPA emission standards. There has not been total agreement within the automotive and lubrication industry about whether phosphorous levels over .10% actually do harm catalytic converters in the long run. What they have failed to make allowances for is the NOACK volatility of an oil.

The maximum allowable NOACK volatility percentage for the new SL/GF-3 passenger car motor oil specification is 15%. Most of AMSOIL motor oils are in the 5% to 8% NOACK volatility range. Studies have shown there is a correlation between NOACK volatility, oil consumption and the amount of phosphorous from motor oil that will end up in the exhaust gasses. Therefore, oils with higher levels of phosphorous but with low volatility, such as AMSOIL motor oils, present no more risk to catalytic converters than low phosphorous oils with higher NOACK volatility. This has also been demonstrated for years in actual application through state mandated exhaust gas testing on our Dealers' and customers' high mileage vehicles using AMSOIL synthetic motor oils. State inspectors are continually amazed at the low emissions levels generated by vehicles using AMSOIL products. So much for poisoning catalytic converters.

AMSOIL INC. has determined that the reduced wear and extended drain intervals achievable with phosphorous levels higher than the API limit of .10% are real benefits for the consumer, and pose no risk to catalytic converters. AMSOIL motor oils, except for the API licensed XL-7500 5W-30, 5W-20 and 10W-30 viscosity grades, all have greater than .10% phosphorous levels, and therefore, cannot be API licensed.

Why Some AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils Are API Licensed And Some Are Not

1. Full API licensing puts AMSOIL INC. in an inflexible position. Not only would we find it necessary to buy formula components from specific vendors and be at the mercy of their pricing, we would not be able to make any major improvements to the lubricant formulas for 2 to 3 years, without new testing and the associated costs. To solve this problem, the API must establish basestock interchange guidelines for synthetic basestocks just as they have for other basestocks, as well as develop interchange guidelines for other components too.

2. Full API licensing would impose strict phosphorous limitations on our motor oils. This limitation is the main reason most AMSOIL motor oils are not API licensed. AMSOIL INC. currently disagrees with this limitation and feels strongly that the reduced wear and longer oil and additive life achieved through higher levels of properly balanced phosphorous content is more important than the arbitrary API phosphorous limit that does not give any consideration to the NOACK volatility level of an oil. When chemistry is developed that will provide superior engine wear protection with reduced phosphorous levels, or Noack volatility considerations are put in place, then the phosphorous level will become a non-issue.

Warranties And API Licensed Motor Oils

Fortunately, the law does not allow manufacturers to "void your warranty" simply because of the brand of oil you use, the specifications it meets or the miles you drive between oil changes. To be specific, they cannot deny to fix your broken radio, faulty valve or cracked piston because you used an AMSOIL non-API licensed motor oil, or because you've gone more than 3000 miles since your last oil change. Denial of warranty coverage must be specifically due to an oil related failure. All courts of law will find against any manufacturer or dealership that tries these warranty shenanigans. If any automobile dealership insinuates that your warranty will be void if you use AMSOIL products or utilize extended drain intervals, let AMSOIL INC. know the name of the Dealership, the address, the owner's name and the name of the employee that made this statement. Mail to:

AMSOIL INC.
Attention: Technical Services Department
AMSOIL Building
Superior, WI 54880

or e-mail to tech@amsoil.com.

They will almost never put it in writing, but if they do, please send us a copy of that, too. Either way, we will send them a letter informing them cease the intimidation of our customers. Click HERE to read a sample letter.

Only if the oil is determined to be the direct cause of the engine problem can a manufacturer or dealership deny warranty coverage for that specific problem. In this situation the AMSOIL warranty would apply, and the AMSOIL Technical Services Department would assist you in processing your claim and in getting the vehicle repaired. That's our pledge to you. AMSOIL INC. sells millions of gallons of oil per year and warranty claims are a rare occurrence. If you ever have a warranty problem with an automobile manufacturer or dealership, AMSOIL will assist you by analyzing the problem and providing data supporting the fact that repairs should be made under the vehicle manufacturer's warranty. If this does not resolve the problem, AMSOIL will submit a claim with our insurance company and request that an adjuster have the vehicle repaired and pursue legal settlement later if necessary. The fact is there never has been an engine failure attributed to the non-performance of AMSOIL products, and we do not expect there ever will be. If it ever did, both AMSOIL and our insurance company would make certain your problem was resolved. Click HERE to see the AMSOIL Limited Warranty.

How Does AMSOIL INC. Ensure Their Products Meet Or Exceed The Minimum Specifications Of The Tests Required For API Licensing?

First, AMSOIL INC. works closely with major additive companies to select the top performing, and usually most expensive, passenger car and heavy duty diesel motor oil additives. These additives have already passed all of the API licensing requirements in a petroleum or synthetic based formulation. Then we work with the additive company to maximize the amount of additive used and to boost the additive package in selected performance areas to achieve an optimum performing additive package for reduced wear and extended drain intervals. This is unlike the vast majority of companies who, because additives are expensive, use the minimum amount of the least expensive additives required to meet the minimum API requirements.

We then utilize a blend of synthetic basestocks with known performance characteristics as a replacement for the petroleum basestocks to optimize performance in areas of lubricity, volatility, viscosity index, oxidation and nitration resistance, pour points, flash points, deposit control, soot handling, emissions, etc. We also will utilize a highly shear stable V.I. improver to ensure viscosity retention throughout extended drain intervals. This replaces the inexpensive and less shear stable V.I. improver used in the API licensed petroleum formula. We do laboratory bench tests before running field tests to verify the superiority of the synthetic formula in actual use. We also continue to monitor the performance of the oil through close scrutiny of tens of thousands of oil analysis tests per year across a wide variety of vehicles all around North America and the World. AMSOIL INC. has been collecting used synthetic oil samples from passenger cars since 1982. No other oil company has such a vast data base of the performance of synthetic lubricants over extended drain intervals.

AMSOIL INC.'s products and formulations outperform API licensed oils. They're engineered that way. Period.

Conclusion

AMSOIL INC. takes pride in never having conformed to industry norms or standards when those standards are contrary to peak performance. We introduced synthetics to the automotive world in 1972 with the first synthetic motor oil to exceed API performance specifications. At that time other manufacturers refused to recognize the superior performance of synthetic motor oils. Now, however, most companies sell synthetic lubricants, vehicles are factory filled with synthetic motor oils and gear lubes, and some manufacturers even offer extended warranties if you use synthetics. AMSOIL has always offered extended drain intervals because the oil was capable of performing for extended drains, and it was the right thing to do for the consumer. Now the entire industry is moving in that direction. Ironically, it was recently published that automotive manufacturers will be recommending extended drain intervals of up to 15,000 miles in the near future because that's what consumers want.

AMSOIL is a company of firsts. That doesn't happen by always conforming to industry norms and standards.

API licensing of lubricants is voluntary, and it ensures automobile manufacturers and consumers that the product meets a set of minimum standards. Should these standards, in the future, be raised to a level consistent with AMSOIL's standards for motor oil performance, AMSOIL will consider licensing all oils. For those that feel pressured to use an API licensed product, we have them and encourage you to use them (XLT, XLM, XLF and PCO). AMSOIL does offer better performing motor oils that are not API licensed for all of the reasons explained in this response. They provide our customers with alternatives to the commodity products typically available in the market today. If you want the convenience of extended drain intervals or the top performance from your vehicle, AMSOIL has taken time to engineer the very best money can buy. </font color=red>

 

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr>

The Series 2000 stuff is over $8/qt on their website.

<hr></blockquote>

I just checked the retail site for the Series 2000 5W-30 and it is $5.85/qt. Where are you seeing $8.00/qt.? Can you show me a link?

John.

 

you got mail

Where in ASTM D-4485 (Standard Specification for Performance of Engine Oils) would you find D-4172? You don't. Instead you find references for other specifications for examine properties that you'll find in the engine, such as your cams, piston, etc.

Again visualize a situation where you would see the 4-ball test in your engine that is lubricated by engine oil.

Lubrizol is their additive supplier, they don't tell you that in their website, because they want to look better.

Their PAO supplier is Exxon-Mobil, again the website does not want to admit that, as it will jeporadize sales.

Phophorous content. It is correct for API SJ specification. Since some of their oils meet also API SL, their statement is not as correct, as the phosphorous limitation is for all visocities.

Automotive and Lubrication Industry don't agree on NOACK and Phosphorous? Amsoil doesn't agree, but International Lubrication Standardization and Approval Committee (ILSAC) references the ASTM specification and max limit of 0.10%.

Read through the specification carefully.

Go read all the standards the specifications involved...and sift through yourself what is factual, and what is marketing B.S.

Marketing B.S. such as PIAA claims of a 60/65 watt bulb using their XTRA technology will give you the performance of a 80/100 watt bulb...stuff like that. There's always going to some some B.S. involved. If you get fooled...you get fooled and learn from them.

Maybe we should start a separate thread on documented studies and reports the show the correlation between phosphorous and emissions control device performance.
(or talk off line)