any problems with the greddy TT kit?
Some of the major pros are:
1) Plug and play. No more messy soldering or expensive add-on harnesses required.
How much is the utech? How much is an EU with a pre-built harness? Are they not the same or close to being the same?
2) Loopy-idle? My idle is perfect. The UTEC can add an offset when in ECU mode to compensate for larger injectors and a return system.
As soon as you change the idle point the ECU will start to fight it and eventually throw a CEL. The problems related to idle are related to injector size and nothing else. The larger the injectors, the smaller the pulse widths and the more erratic the injectors become. You either run rich (which you can't because the ECU will try and force it back to lean again) or induce more air, i.e open the throttle, which the close loop throttle control will fight about.
3) The UTEC takes full control over fuel and timing at a tuner defined point, such as 2psi and 2000rpm, and maintains control throughout the power band. No interference from the stock ECU can take place. Big con of the EB and EU.
This is a nightmare!!!! You have a completely blank map with no values at all ... what pulse widths do you start with? what ignition timing should you use? This takes a LOT of time unless you have a base map and as we know every car is different so base maps are of little use. Also since you have full control you have to use their air and coolant temperature maps otherwise the system will not compensate for them. Once again you either have to tune this in summer and in winter or you take a wild guess.
Fuel trims are your friend if used properly. Long term fuel trim is used to compensate for air temperature, coolant temperature and other unknown things that effect mixture, such as a change in fuel from Shell to Mobil... Long term fuel trim is applied to the pulse width under open loop conditions, automatically compensating for these variations.
The EU, on the other hand, takes the factory injector signal, and ignition signals, and adds or subtracts from them. So the tune is always at the mercy of whatever the stock ECU decides to do which was never designed for boost.
Companies have spent millions on these ECUs and their maps and systems within them. They are worth their weight in gold literally. If the ECU detects know it pulls timing. If it doesn't then it advances the ignition (as is the case in the S2000). Sure the stock ECU does not have maps into boost, why should it but you are just compensating for pressure of the air and that's it ...
4) UTEC has Knock detection and feedback control which can save your engine.
The UTEC has to have knock control because it requires you to set the ignition timing explicitly. The values that it uses are trial and error to get it about right to what the stock ECU would do ... so if you are going to do that ... why don't you use the stock ECU :-) Knock is knock ... it doesn't get louder or quieter based on boost pressure ...
5) UTEC also has over-boost cut (big help for TN guys without the dump tube or if you have a wastegate problem)
So does the EU. My car is set right now to pull crazy timing if I hit boost while I break in my motor
Note, during closed loop the UTEC modified the MAF sensor input only to scale for larger injectors and it only has one column shared by all rpm
!
1) Plug and play. No more messy soldering or expensive add-on harnesses required.
How much is the utech? How much is an EU with a pre-built harness? Are they not the same or close to being the same?
2) Loopy-idle? My idle is perfect. The UTEC can add an offset when in ECU mode to compensate for larger injectors and a return system.
As soon as you change the idle point the ECU will start to fight it and eventually throw a CEL. The problems related to idle are related to injector size and nothing else. The larger the injectors, the smaller the pulse widths and the more erratic the injectors become. You either run rich (which you can't because the ECU will try and force it back to lean again) or induce more air, i.e open the throttle, which the close loop throttle control will fight about.
3) The UTEC takes full control over fuel and timing at a tuner defined point, such as 2psi and 2000rpm, and maintains control throughout the power band. No interference from the stock ECU can take place. Big con of the EB and EU.
This is a nightmare!!!! You have a completely blank map with no values at all ... what pulse widths do you start with? what ignition timing should you use? This takes a LOT of time unless you have a base map and as we know every car is different so base maps are of little use. Also since you have full control you have to use their air and coolant temperature maps otherwise the system will not compensate for them. Once again you either have to tune this in summer and in winter or you take a wild guess.
Fuel trims are your friend if used properly. Long term fuel trim is used to compensate for air temperature, coolant temperature and other unknown things that effect mixture, such as a change in fuel from Shell to Mobil... Long term fuel trim is applied to the pulse width under open loop conditions, automatically compensating for these variations.
The EU, on the other hand, takes the factory injector signal, and ignition signals, and adds or subtracts from them. So the tune is always at the mercy of whatever the stock ECU decides to do which was never designed for boost.
Companies have spent millions on these ECUs and their maps and systems within them. They are worth their weight in gold literally. If the ECU detects know it pulls timing. If it doesn't then it advances the ignition (as is the case in the S2000). Sure the stock ECU does not have maps into boost, why should it but you are just compensating for pressure of the air and that's it ...
4) UTEC has Knock detection and feedback control which can save your engine.
The UTEC has to have knock control because it requires you to set the ignition timing explicitly. The values that it uses are trial and error to get it about right to what the stock ECU would do ... so if you are going to do that ... why don't you use the stock ECU :-) Knock is knock ... it doesn't get louder or quieter based on boost pressure ...
5) UTEC also has over-boost cut (big help for TN guys without the dump tube or if you have a wastegate problem)
So does the EU. My car is set right now to pull crazy timing if I hit boost while I break in my motor
Note, during closed loop the UTEC modified the MAF sensor input only to scale for larger injectors and it only has one column shared by all rpm
!
Last edited by 617G; Jun 23, 2007 at 03:19 AM.
Some of the major pros are:
1) Plug and play. No more messy soldering or expensive add-on harnesses required.
How much is the utech? How much is an EU with a pre-built harness? Are they not the same or close to being the same?
UTEC is ~$800, EU and harness are ~$800 plus time or labor to do solder the harness...
2) Loopy-idle? My idle is perfect. The UTEC can add an offset when in ECU mode to compensate for larger injectors and a return system.
As soon as you change the idle point the ECU will start to fight it and eventually throw a CEL. The problems related to idle are related to injector size and nothing else. The larger the injectors, the smaller the pulse widths and the more erratic the injectors become. You either run rich (which you can't because the ECU will try and force it back to lean again) or induce more air, i.e open the throttle, which the close loop throttle control will fight about.
You are not changing the idle point. You just change when the UTEC takes over and if you add larger injecectors you add a small fuel offset. It seriously took 5 seconds to fix on my car and my idle is perfect.
3) The UTEC takes full control over fuel and timing at a tuner defined point, such as 2psi and 2000rpm, and maintains control throughout the power band. No interference from the stock ECU can take place. Big con of the EB and EU.
This is a nightmare!!!! You have a completely blank map with no values at all ... what pulse widths do you start with? what ignition timing should you use? This takes a LOT of time unless you have a base map and as we know every car is different so base maps are of little use. Also since you have full control you have to use their air and coolant temperature maps otherwise the system will not compensate for them. Once again you either have to tune this in summer and in winter or you take a wild guess.
Fuel trims are your friend if used properly. Long term fuel trim is used to compensate for air temperature, coolant temperature and other unknown things that effect mixture, such as a change in fuel from Shell to Mobil... Long term fuel trim is applied to the pulse width under open loop conditions, automatically compensating for these variations.
You have many base maps (which are actually quite helpful
) you can pick from to start with and modify from there. "What should pulse width, timing, etc should you use?" - That is why an experienced tuner should do it in the beginning. Tony at UMS Tuning did my car the first time and he has done tons of UTEC's, EB, EU, AEM, etc and he had my car completely tuned in a couple hours. I have never tuned an EU but he has done many and talks about what POS they are.
The EU, on the other hand, takes the factory injector signal, and ignition signals, and adds or subtracts from them. So the tune is always at the mercy of whatever the stock ECU decides to do which was never designed for boost.
Companies have spent millions on these ECUs and their maps and systems within them. They are worth their weight in gold literally. If the ECU detects know it pulls timing. If it doesn't then it advances the ignition (as is the case in the S2000). Sure the stock ECU does not have maps into boost, why should it but you are just compensating for pressure of the air and that's it ...
Yes millions making an ECU for a stock car and not for a boost application. I completely disagree that letting the stock ECU have any control is a good idea because you never know what it may do. It does not have the ability to make smart decisions in boost situations.
4) UTEC has Knock detection and feedback control which can save your engine.
The UTEC has to have knock control because it requires you to set the ignition timing explicitly. The values that it uses are trial and error to get it about right to what the stock ECU would do ... so if you are going to do that ... why don't you use the stock ECU :-) Knock is knock ... it doesn't get louder or quieter based on boost pressure ...
Again, the stock ECU is not ready to pull the kind of timing that is needed when boost applications come in. TRUST ME, I have seen this first hand! My Stillen stage 4 went into a knock situation in high rpm and when it was 110+ here in phoenix and would just continue to do it until I let off. I tried it a few times and the stock ECU could not make enough adjustment to get to a safe timing level.
5) UTEC also has over-boost cut (big help for TN guys without the dump tube or if you have a wastegate problem)
So does the EU. My car is set right now to pull crazy timing if I hit boost while I break in my motor
Note, during closed loop the UTEC modified the MAF sensor input only to scale for larger injectors and it only has one column shared by all rpm !
Yes you are right but there is no need for more. All you need that colum for is to add the offset to compensate for changes in the fuel system. I have never needed more, my car is set to kick in at 1psi of boost.
It is funny how every tuner I have spoken to including many on here and My350Z all agree that the UTEC is far superior to the EU and they have dealt with them over and over. I trust the opinions of the experts and if they liked the EU better I would take their recommendations I would probably have one. It's great that you are happy with it and there is nothing wrong with that. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
1) Plug and play. No more messy soldering or expensive add-on harnesses required.
How much is the utech? How much is an EU with a pre-built harness? Are they not the same or close to being the same?
UTEC is ~$800, EU and harness are ~$800 plus time or labor to do solder the harness...
2) Loopy-idle? My idle is perfect. The UTEC can add an offset when in ECU mode to compensate for larger injectors and a return system.
As soon as you change the idle point the ECU will start to fight it and eventually throw a CEL. The problems related to idle are related to injector size and nothing else. The larger the injectors, the smaller the pulse widths and the more erratic the injectors become. You either run rich (which you can't because the ECU will try and force it back to lean again) or induce more air, i.e open the throttle, which the close loop throttle control will fight about.
You are not changing the idle point. You just change when the UTEC takes over and if you add larger injecectors you add a small fuel offset. It seriously took 5 seconds to fix on my car and my idle is perfect.
3) The UTEC takes full control over fuel and timing at a tuner defined point, such as 2psi and 2000rpm, and maintains control throughout the power band. No interference from the stock ECU can take place. Big con of the EB and EU.
This is a nightmare!!!! You have a completely blank map with no values at all ... what pulse widths do you start with? what ignition timing should you use? This takes a LOT of time unless you have a base map and as we know every car is different so base maps are of little use. Also since you have full control you have to use their air and coolant temperature maps otherwise the system will not compensate for them. Once again you either have to tune this in summer and in winter or you take a wild guess.
Fuel trims are your friend if used properly. Long term fuel trim is used to compensate for air temperature, coolant temperature and other unknown things that effect mixture, such as a change in fuel from Shell to Mobil... Long term fuel trim is applied to the pulse width under open loop conditions, automatically compensating for these variations.
You have many base maps (which are actually quite helpful
) you can pick from to start with and modify from there. "What should pulse width, timing, etc should you use?" - That is why an experienced tuner should do it in the beginning. Tony at UMS Tuning did my car the first time and he has done tons of UTEC's, EB, EU, AEM, etc and he had my car completely tuned in a couple hours. I have never tuned an EU but he has done many and talks about what POS they are. The EU, on the other hand, takes the factory injector signal, and ignition signals, and adds or subtracts from them. So the tune is always at the mercy of whatever the stock ECU decides to do which was never designed for boost.
Companies have spent millions on these ECUs and their maps and systems within them. They are worth their weight in gold literally. If the ECU detects know it pulls timing. If it doesn't then it advances the ignition (as is the case in the S2000). Sure the stock ECU does not have maps into boost, why should it but you are just compensating for pressure of the air and that's it ...
Yes millions making an ECU for a stock car and not for a boost application. I completely disagree that letting the stock ECU have any control is a good idea because you never know what it may do. It does not have the ability to make smart decisions in boost situations.
4) UTEC has Knock detection and feedback control which can save your engine.
The UTEC has to have knock control because it requires you to set the ignition timing explicitly. The values that it uses are trial and error to get it about right to what the stock ECU would do ... so if you are going to do that ... why don't you use the stock ECU :-) Knock is knock ... it doesn't get louder or quieter based on boost pressure ...
Again, the stock ECU is not ready to pull the kind of timing that is needed when boost applications come in. TRUST ME, I have seen this first hand! My Stillen stage 4 went into a knock situation in high rpm and when it was 110+ here in phoenix and would just continue to do it until I let off. I tried it a few times and the stock ECU could not make enough adjustment to get to a safe timing level.
5) UTEC also has over-boost cut (big help for TN guys without the dump tube or if you have a wastegate problem)
So does the EU. My car is set right now to pull crazy timing if I hit boost while I break in my motor
Note, during closed loop the UTEC modified the MAF sensor input only to scale for larger injectors and it only has one column shared by all rpm !
Yes you are right but there is no need for more. All you need that colum for is to add the offset to compensate for changes in the fuel system. I have never needed more, my car is set to kick in at 1psi of boost.
It is funny how every tuner I have spoken to including many on here and My350Z all agree that the UTEC is far superior to the EU and they have dealt with them over and over. I trust the opinions of the experts and if they liked the EU better I would take their recommendations I would probably have one. It's great that you are happy with it and there is nothing wrong with that. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
Originally Posted by ttrank
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree
They're both good piggybacks that get the job done in different ways. I just hate it when regular people (not tuners) think the Utec is the next best thing since sliced bread and mistake opinion for fact and just repeat what they read online.
Originally Posted by 617G
I can live with that They're both good piggybacks that get the job done in different ways. I just hate it when regular people (not tuners) think the Utec is the next best thing since sliced bread and mistake opinion for fact and just repeat what they read online.
They're both good piggybacks that get the job done in different ways. I just hate it when regular people (not tuners) think the Utec is the next best thing since sliced bread and mistake opinion for fact and just repeat what they read online.
Originally Posted by Mark350GT
There's a lot of that sort of thing on these forums, and it goes way beyond engine management lol.
I thought the EU was supposed to get a firmware update to allow explicit control of fuel and timing. Did this ever happen?
The EU has several nice features that the UTEC doesn't (like pulling timing during gear shifts on an auto and target AFR - super nice!).
That said, UTEC acts as a stand alone at (a tuner-specified) load. The EU doesn't. Case closed.
The EU has several nice features that the UTEC doesn't (like pulling timing during gear shifts on an auto and target AFR - super nice!).
That said, UTEC acts as a stand alone at (a tuner-specified) load. The EU doesn't. Case closed.
Actually I have to put in an addendum to my comment above regarding piggybacks.
Now that UpRev has Osiris released, I think you can get piggybacks to operate much more smoothly... take out the different ECU maps and install your own that work well with the piggyback...
Sorry Hex, don't know much about the FCON-IS, but if I were to start over today, I'd consider a piggyback + Osiris - except the UTEC is so cheap - well maybe I'd still get the UTEC
Now that UpRev has Osiris released, I think you can get piggybacks to operate much more smoothly... take out the different ECU maps and install your own that work well with the piggyback...
Sorry Hex, don't know much about the FCON-IS, but if I were to start over today, I'd consider a piggyback + Osiris - except the UTEC is so cheap - well maybe I'd still get the UTEC
For what its worth, we tuned many dozen's of EU back when it was fashionable, and once the UTEC came out....hands down, it is vastly superior, especially in terms of safety and full control. If a customer calls and wants me to tune an EU on his FI car, the first thing I do is BEG him to switch to the UTEC.
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From: NY
Originally Posted by sharif@forged
For what its worth, we tuned many dozen's of EU back when it was fashionable, and once the UTEC came out....hands down, it is vastly superior, especially in terms of safety and full control. If a customer calls and wants me to tune an EU on his FI car, the first thing I do is BEG him to switch to the UTEC.
+1
This debate has been resolved long long long time ago. Who ever pick EU over Utec has to have a hidden agenda.
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