I am seriously thinking about going SuperCharged, probably vortech. What other components doi need to buy to complete the whole kit?

I was wondering if you select few think it was a waste of money, to much of a hassle, or wanted something else? and how much are u guys paying for this kit?

Basicaly what i would like to know is, if you could do this all over again would you?

thanks in advance

Devin

 

THis may be just me, unless you avidly/professionally track your car and absolutely need linear rpm/boost relationship for handling stability and predictability (which excludes over 99% of the people), I just cannot see why one would opt to pay almost the same amount of money, if not more at the end of the day, for a Vortech whereas they can get an APS single turbo system that is not only superiorly R&D'd but makes tons (50-70 lb-ft) more torque. I just can't see that. Not to mention the day-to-day drivability being superior with a turbo as it does not directly tax the crank.

Remember, if you really want to compare power outputs of any two (or more) cars, you have to take teh TORQUE curves and superimpose them on one another. do NOT ever make a decision based on some peak numbers. Centrifugal superchargers can and do make close to 380-390 hp (peak), but make only ~330-340 lb-ft of torque (at best). Turbos will make roughly the same number of hp units and torque units. Except for the noted circumstances, i just don't see how buying a SC today can be worth it. I have a lot of friends on these boards, and some of them do have SCs, but that was at the time when the only alternatives were twin turbos which carried a an additional 50-70% cost premium (plus a 100-200% additioanl install labor premium). That is simply not hte case with a ST system such as APS. The cost difference is roughly 10-25%, and can almost disappear when you take into account the additional tuning that is FOR CERTAIN required. The install labor difference is non existent, as it takes roughly as long to install the ST as a Vortech, since (unlike in TTs) the headers are not removed. An APS ST will already be tuned and read yto go right out of the box. One drawback of course for teh ST is no chance of carb approval (I would not be holding my breath for carb eo for the Vortech either, however).

HTH

 

Gurgen, One more thing to consider:

The Greddy TT's have a history of blowing VQ’s unless there are some sort of internal modifications.

The ATI Procharger’s have a history of blowing engines (people say it’s due to improper tuning but the kit doesn’t come w/ tuning capabilities).

Stillen S/C is just not an option for most people due to the hood design and much lower peak horse power numbers.

Most Vortec’s have a history of running safely at peak numbers of up to 400rwhp for 20,000+ miles with the SS box that comes with the kit.

So what else has there been? It would seem that if someone has a stock G35 and they want a 100+rwhp increase with a reasonably safe risk/reward pay off, then the Vortec is still the best answer at this time.

APS is the new kid on the block. They have a “looks good on paper” solution to the ST and TT kits, but there hasn’t been a huge amount of time for them to develop a publicly proven track record. If I’m not mistaken, the first APS ST kits are just now making their way to the public. Most people are still on a waiting list for the APS and I’ve just recently read my first Turbonetix ST install post on my350z.com. This owner had less than 1000 miles on his ST and it wasn't even broken in yet. The Turbonetix and APS ST’s have NO TRACK RECORD on the stock internals of the VQ35DE for any reasonable period of time (outside of what APS or Turbonetix might have tested themselves). If I was in the FI market a ST would not even enter the picture for another 18 or so months from now when there is reasonably good data about what kit to buy, the # of kits sold compared to the failure rate, etc...

Remember, not all of us are as brave as a few of the pioneers who've gone ahead before us. Many people take your suggestions as GOSPEL due to your much appreciated hard work and experience in the FI arena. Just don’t forget to mention that the ST’s are still new and unproven because many people need to be reminded of that fact over and over. I for one could not 'afford' to be on my 2nd form of FI and my 3rd or 4th engine (of which one or two of them have been fully rebuilt).

Basically I agree with your post but just wanted to point out that most of us can’t afford to throw caution into the wind the same way that some of the other “more brave” members of this forum can. For us, VORTEC may still be the best answer...

 

One more thing to remember is the a single turbo system typically has SERIOUS turbo lag. This is why twin turbos are better and safer than a single.......because they use two smaller turbos instead of one large one.

To my knowledge, a twin turbo is gonna be a little safer for your engine than one large single turbo.

 

These statements are not accurate with the APS ST. APS uses a water cooled twin ball bearing Garrett turbo that provides boost at around 2,500 rpms for virtually no lag. The APS TT boost kicks in at 2,000 rpms only 500 rpms less!

 

For those interested... APS TT goes boom.

 

That is most likely install error. Neff I understand the reliability issues you mentioned earlier but anytime you take an NA car and increase it's power with FI their is going to be a certain amount of failures. I would never suggest for someone to FI their Vq35 without having another daily driver. Their is just too many variables that can go wrong no matter how careful you are.

 

I know...cuz TORQUE is what is breaking things, not SC's.

 

After 10,000 miles with my Vortech, I still love it and have NO regrets whatsoever.

 

Neff.. I guess I see your point, but do not FULLY agree with it.

An ST system works on the same principal as a twin turbo..not diference there. The reason that I had the word "FULLY" above, is that yes, there is a chance that the kit will have some unforseen troubles, and by that I mean random things. I would almost bet the car on the fact that this ST system (don't know about others) will NOT have any significant issues wrt to its construction and design, ONLY because it is APS that is designing it, a company which places A LOT of R&D resources into their products. This, given their experience with the TT kit, I just do not see how it can truly be considered suspect. Have we not seen it in action...well we have, on the APS video of the G running with the kit; is it vaporware like Dreamworks..of course not, not even close.

Another important thing... this is not a matter of throwing caution into the wind like you mentioned. An FI solution is an FI soultion is an FI solution... Amost every out of the box kit that as blown an engine was attributable to tuning in some form...including mine. Yes, some FI solutions do not have an in-rush of torque in the midrange...but you cannot consider that a factor in your decision. Get a turbo that will have the same in-rush of torque in the midrange, and turn down the boost 30%, you will still end up with the SAME performance as a Vortech kit allows. What I am trying to say is that it is ALL in the tuning. If an in-rush was a factor in blowing engines, then a stillen SC with a LOT of lowend torque would be blowing engines left and right. Another thing, Vortech only puts out, say, 320-330lb-ft of torque to the wheels, and to this end many people say that it is 'safer' and is hence less likely to blow an engine. Not true in that regard... the engine still puts out 360-380 lb-ft..it is that that differential is 'wasted' on cranking the SC.

One another comment that i want to respond to specifically:
Neff, and everyone else, pleeeaaassseeee do not go and say something like this without qualifying it, especially to newbies... The reason those engine blew was tuning. Now is that a fault of Greddy? Yes, to the extent that they did not provide a good, safe map in emanage. Would a greddy blow in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing? NO, unless the engine was unusually weak or was revved very high (which could weaken rod bolts, etc..), essentially why MY stock engine blew.

 

sorry im a newbie with fi. what other things do i need to buy to insure i run safe?

 

Look up G356Gear. He's in your neck of the woods and is very knowledgable. Otherwise use this website
http://www.my350z.com/forum/search.php? or go in FAQ in FI on my350z.com This has been talked about many times on that board.

 

Definitely, Steve is a good resource to hit up. But yes, run a search on my350z.com... the info is there, spend a few days (no less) reading, and you will have a very good idea. But we are all here to help...

 

Hey Gurgen,
What do you think about the JWT TT kit? Out of box rwhp is in low 300's using stock injectors. However I will replace it with larger injectors to get more HP, add Nismo Cam, Plenum, uses the split 2nd box, so can have SFR tune it for more HP. That carb eo# with JWT kit is a big plus here in Cali. Having 2nd thoughts on getting the APS TT kit ( smoking issues ).

 

Not sure how to answer taht yet.

So far, the only two thing that JWT has going for it is CARB EO, although i think APS will eventually get one too (but i can definitely NOT be sre about this), and the fact that it has smaller turbos that yield very good low end... NOT the raw numbers (explained below). And this maybe very important to many people, but of course almost of no consequency to people with 5ATs, as you will almost never be in the low rpm range unless you are in first gear, at which point there is NEVER enough load o generate the early torque at those low rpms anyway. Even for people with MTs, how many times do you go full throttle at 1000-1500 rpms (in 3rd+ gear, where enough load will be generated to spool up the turbos), as when you go full throttle you are trying to fast, and you would ofcourse pick a lower gear to be in the ~4000 rpm torque peak range.

The JWT kit to me looks incomplete and not even close to the quality of the APS, honestly, not even close. Does it get teh job done, yes... but so can a custom kit that was put together in a couple of days. You need to read carefully into the SportZ shootout numbers. I am about 95% sure that their numbers were achieved using stock timing, or stock -102 degrees, NOT -5 degrees that APS takes out. If you really want to compare what the kit can do, make sure that it's run at teh same boost levels and at the same timing advance (and preferably the similar A/F). At that point, i promise, the good kit will come ahead, but not by VERY much (could be as high as 15-20hp/tq), and that power gain would be attributable to the overall design and optimization of things like air flow, near 0 pressure drop through the piping, etc, etc.. Also, the dynos were done at over 8psi, whereas the kit will ship with a 6.9 psi setup

Ok, i digressed..let me get back to the JWT kit.
1) Lack of bigger injectors (combined with smaller turbos pretty much PREVENT you from having any kind of upgrade path..and if yu think that 400whp would be enough... well it may very well be, but many have been known to get he feve land want to upgrade). overpressureising the fuel system like that is certainly not the elegant or pure approach.
2) small turbos (very good and very bad at the same time).
3) split second piggyback EM - certainly not the best one by far (whereas the Unichip is AT LEAST tied with the best one, if not THE best piggyback computer).
4) terrible air intake position - pure hot air induction. Also take into account that the dynos were most likely performed with the hood open, as they are about 99.9% of the time, in which case JWT gets a good supply of cooler air that it will not get when it's on the road. APS filters, atlreast on the Z are positioned in the wheel well, where they will always get cold air (in fact more when they are in motion compared to the dyno).
5) JWT does have the oem-style MAF positon, which is how all mafs should be run (from my research). This is not a real issue, as APS uses MAP for tuning anyway and oes not solely rely on MAF.
6) JWT does have good intercooler positioning, at least for the coupes. However, I am not sure how good the IC (really have no info) is compared to the APS' (or PE's top notch ARC intercooler).
7) I'd love to see JWT's and APS's turbo compressor maps to see how the work for our engine (similar to the analysis i did for the PE1420's, GT28R, and the Greddy's Mitsu's). That could be helpful. For that matter.
8) The quality of APS parts and design is SO top notch in my opinion, that I jsut do not see how it can be improved upon very much, in the realm of a mass-produced, relatively speaking, production turbo kit). Even without seeing the kit, the significant shortcuts taken by JWT as I see them exclude them from contention, in my humble opinion, for the quality/design crown.

ok..getting tired here... let me bottom line it... If it were me, i would not even consider the JWT kit unless it was significantly cheaper from the APS kit, and i mean $1500-2000 cheaper. That's jsut my opinion, however, to each his own. It just does not have the purity and elegance of design that hte APS kit has,again, IN MY OPINION (and this may be very much a matter of opinion).

HTH