Heel Toe Shifting Possible?
#1
04-20-2004, 12:48 PM
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Heel Toe Shifting Possible?
Not sure if this has been discussed before, but I for the life of me cannot imagine how I would heel toe in my 6MT coupe. The brake pedal sits way higher than the throttle so that by the time my toe reaches the throttle, I would have put the brakes on full power. This is annoying when I want to slow down quickly and do a blip to rev match to a lower gear during sharp turns. Instead I have to slow down, do a quick blip and then get on the brake again while releasing the clutch which is more cumbersome and potentially dangerous if I don't time the manuever right. Any thoughts or ideas? Maybe a DIY on recalibrating the brake pedal?
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#2
04-20-2004, 12:59 PM
Re: Heel Toe Shifting Possible?
Use your toe to brake and heel to "blip" the throttle. I usually wear Vans and I can heel-toe just by using the left side of my foot to brake and then roll my ankle over to blip the throttle.
Russ
Black 6MT Coupe
Jax, FL
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Russ
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#3
04-20-2004, 02:23 PM
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Re: Heel Toe Shifting Possible?
You could try buying some aftermarket pedals if it's that important to you. I have some from www.autovation.net, and they are awesome. They're specifically made to heel-toe (they have a little extrusion on the left side of the gas pedal for your heel).
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#4
04-20-2004, 02:28 PM
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Re: Heel Toe Shifting Possible?
I do it with no problem at all. Your problem seems to lie in the fact that you do use your heel to brake when it is your toe which should be doing it.
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#5
04-20-2004, 03:55 PM
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Re: Heel Toe Shifting Possible?
I've played around with it a few times. I think the biggest problem is that you aren't braking hard enough that you can easily reach the gas pedal. To execute heel/toe, you really need to be on the brakes. If you aren't braking that hard, there's no need to heel/toe. Just my observation. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
gunga
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#6
04-20-2004, 05:19 PM
Re: Heel Toe Shifting Possible?
I do it with no problem just practicing (like on on ramps and such). However when you really need to (e.g., braking very hard from 130 to reach a 90mph corner speed, track of course), the gas pedal is a bit high.
Thin-soled racing boots make it easier, but I can still do it in Mephistos as long as I'm not at maximum breaking.
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Thin-soled racing boots make it easier, but I can still do it in Mephistos as long as I'm not at maximum breaking.
Black/Willow 03.5 6MT, Premium, Navi, Aero, SAT
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#7
04-20-2004, 05:59 PM
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Re: Heel Toe Shifting Possible?
I completely agree with gunga. You only need to whip out the heel-and-toe technique when you need to slow down fast, in which case you are braking hard and that should line up the pedals enough to heel-and-toe.
Another technique that you could try is, as soon as you blip the throttle, move your right foot back to the brake and use your brakes as you are bringing the clutch back up to engage the lower gear. It works pretty well, assuming you blip the throttle appropriately 10 times out of 10.
Heel-and-toe downshifting is a tough technique anyways. Kudos to those who have mastered it and use it on a daily basis.
MrElussive
03 G35C 6MT
Another technique that you could try is, as soon as you blip the throttle, move your right foot back to the brake and use your brakes as you are bringing the clutch back up to engage the lower gear. It works pretty well, assuming you blip the throttle appropriately 10 times out of 10.
Heel-and-toe downshifting is a tough technique anyways. Kudos to those who have mastered it and use it on a daily basis.
MrElussive
03 G35C 6MT
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#9
04-20-2004, 06:54 PM
Re: Heel Toe Shifting Possible?
While I don't have a 6MT, I'm very intrigued/interested in knowing what the heck you guys are talking about. After reading some of the posts, I'm trying to envision how you do this, but somehow am not able to clearly understand it.
'03 G35 C Prem Pkg, Navi, Aero, Performance Wheel & Tire Pkg
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#10
04-20-2004, 06:54 PM
Re: Heel Toe Shifting Possible?
i can only heel/toe when i drive barefoot. can't do it in shoes for the reasons mentioned above.
being new to MT, the first time I successfully heel/toed making a corner was an awesome feeling. I can now see why driving a MT is so much fun
Golden Gate G35s
being new to MT, the first time I successfully heel/toed making a corner was an awesome feeling. I can now see why driving a MT is so much fun
Golden Gate G35s
#12
04-20-2004, 07:19 PM
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Re: Heel Toe Shifting Possible?
As mentioned by others, heel is at gas, toe is at brake. However, for street cars, usually people do "sole & sole" or "side & side", as described by TentaCinque. I believe heel&toe is only necessary when u need a LOT of stepping force, as in old F1 racing.
The brake pedal being higher is conducive to H&T, esp. since the initial travel of the brake pedal has a small braking effect. However I can H&T comfortably under all braking conditions - from zero braking (in which case it isn't technically H&T) to hard braking.
The caution to the lazy "S&S" technique is that you want to avoid unintentionally stepping on the gas. I occasionally commited that mistake during hard/emergency braking in my beginning days of S&S although no harm is done since I would also have the clutch pedal depressed. This resulted from my habitual positioning of my right foot between brake and gas.
I haven't made that mistake for a very long time. I avoid it by forming the habit of stepping on the right corner/edge of the brake pedal most of the time, with the right edge of my sole beneath the gas pedal.
I wear sneakers all the time. And aftermarket pedals do have a marginal aid to this technique. Thought personally I think it's more for looks. Yes I do have the aluminum pedals
H&T is not just good for fast entry (hard braking). In fact, its most important benefit is allowing you a fast exit, by 1) not jerking the vehicle (hence smoother everything), and 2) allowing you to start accelerate sooner and in correct gear. Mostly, I only not do H&T if it's a turn that i won't be accelerating out of.
If ALL you need to do is slow down before a turn, just step on both the clutch and brake, right?
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The brake pedal being higher is conducive to H&T, esp. since the initial travel of the brake pedal has a small braking effect. However I can H&T comfortably under all braking conditions - from zero braking (in which case it isn't technically H&T) to hard braking.
The caution to the lazy "S&S" technique is that you want to avoid unintentionally stepping on the gas. I occasionally commited that mistake during hard/emergency braking in my beginning days of S&S although no harm is done since I would also have the clutch pedal depressed. This resulted from my habitual positioning of my right foot between brake and gas.
I haven't made that mistake for a very long time. I avoid it by forming the habit of stepping on the right corner/edge of the brake pedal most of the time, with the right edge of my sole beneath the gas pedal.
I wear sneakers all the time. And aftermarket pedals do have a marginal aid to this technique. Thought personally I think it's more for looks. Yes I do have the aluminum pedals
H&T is not just good for fast entry (hard braking). In fact, its most important benefit is allowing you a fast exit, by 1) not jerking the vehicle (hence smoother everything), and 2) allowing you to start accelerate sooner and in correct gear. Mostly, I only not do H&T if it's a turn that i won't be accelerating out of.
If ALL you need to do is slow down before a turn, just step on both the clutch and brake, right?
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#13
04-20-2004, 07:21 PM
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Re: Heel Toe Shifting Possible?
Here is an explanation of heel-and-toe:
See, a lot of manual transmission drivers like to downshift to slow the car down (using engine braking). But sometimes there is a lot of traffic or the light suddenly turns yellow then red and you have to stop quickly and you don't have time to do the normal throttle blip to downshift and then step on the brakes. But downshifting is fun and helps slow you down, so what is the solution? To downshift and brake at the same time.
Let's say you're tuning down the road and you're in 3rd gear and you have to stop quickly. So you step on your brake pedal with your right foot and then push the clutch in with your left foot. Then you downshift to 2nd but you have to blip the throttle to rev-match, but you don't have the distance to take your right foot off the brake pedal as you need to slow down. So what you do is, you keep your toe pressed on the brake pedal and you roll your right heel over the accelerator and blip the throttle with your heel...in this one instant you are pressing all three pedals at the same time. Once the throttle is blipped, you let the clutch back out while still braking, and you have the best of both worlds: engine braking and the brakes working for you at the same time, without having to stop braking at all. The technique is called heel-and-toe downshifting because your right foot is doing the job of pressing two pedals for an instant, the tip of your foot (or the big toe) on the brake and the heel of your foot on the accelerator to blip the throttle.
This move is much more useful when you're on a race track where you need heavy braking and engine braking and to be in that lower gear, before you enter the turn. But, many manual drivers on the streets like to use the technique when they have to stop short or they just enjoy doing it and have a use for it all the time, when they wanna slow down.
MrElussive
03 G35C 6MT
See, a lot of manual transmission drivers like to downshift to slow the car down (using engine braking). But sometimes there is a lot of traffic or the light suddenly turns yellow then red and you have to stop quickly and you don't have time to do the normal throttle blip to downshift and then step on the brakes. But downshifting is fun and helps slow you down, so what is the solution? To downshift and brake at the same time.
Let's say you're tuning down the road and you're in 3rd gear and you have to stop quickly. So you step on your brake pedal with your right foot and then push the clutch in with your left foot. Then you downshift to 2nd but you have to blip the throttle to rev-match, but you don't have the distance to take your right foot off the brake pedal as you need to slow down. So what you do is, you keep your toe pressed on the brake pedal and you roll your right heel over the accelerator and blip the throttle with your heel...in this one instant you are pressing all three pedals at the same time. Once the throttle is blipped, you let the clutch back out while still braking, and you have the best of both worlds: engine braking and the brakes working for you at the same time, without having to stop braking at all. The technique is called heel-and-toe downshifting because your right foot is doing the job of pressing two pedals for an instant, the tip of your foot (or the big toe) on the brake and the heel of your foot on the accelerator to blip the throttle.
This move is much more useful when you're on a race track where you need heavy braking and engine braking and to be in that lower gear, before you enter the turn. But, many manual drivers on the streets like to use the technique when they have to stop short or they just enjoy doing it and have a use for it all the time, when they wanna slow down.
MrElussive
03 G35C 6MT
#14
04-20-2004, 08:52 PM
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Re: Heel Toe Shifting Possible?
In my previous post, H&T=double-clutching, though come to think of it, technically H&T is only part of double-clutching. I believe, however, when most people speak of H&T, they mean double-clutching. With that in mind, I'd like clear up a very common misconception regarding double-clutching.
What MrElussive described is not the full DC - some very important steps are missing. Here is the full procedure:
1. Step on the brake.
2. At the same time as #1, or when the time comes, depress clutch pedal.
3. Shift to neutral.
4. Release clutch.
5. While stepping on brake, hit the gas pedal, revving up the engine. This is the H&T part. This is also the essence of double-clutching
6. Depress clutch again. You're still braking and you're *just* finishing free-revving up.
7. Shift down.
8. Release clutch. At this point double-clutching is complete.
NOTES
In reality some of the steps overlap a great deal (but the entire sequence #2-9 is done under a second or even half second, otherwise it's besides the point). These pairs can practically be simultaneous: #2-3, 4-5, 6-7.
Few people know that, in general, 2&4 can be skipped entirely (but it takes some effort and puts stress on gears). Fewer know that 6&8 can also be skipped - under near-perfect rev-matching conditions. I recommend neither because, of couse, they're unreliable techniques.
Lastly, again, under emergency braking, simply step on the brake and clutch, and don't worry about the gas pedal!
Oh, one more thing. Another very useful application of DC is shifting into first gear when you're traveling at anything above 5 mph. For example, you might be on 2nd as you go from level road to uphill, at which point u might need to downshift to 1st without [/i]stopping[/i]. This is nearly impossible to do without DC.
And one one more thing. DC is also very useful for sudden downshifting and acceleration. Like when you're cruising at 75 mph on 6th and decide to race the M3 next to you by shifting into 4th. Without DC you will lose speed when engaging the lower gear. Not to mention a forward jerking motion (of the driver!).
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What MrElussive described is not the full DC - some very important steps are missing. Here is the full procedure:
1. Step on the brake.
2. At the same time as #1, or when the time comes, depress clutch pedal.
3. Shift to neutral.
4. Release clutch.
5. While stepping on brake, hit the gas pedal, revving up the engine. This is the H&T part. This is also the essence of double-clutching
6. Depress clutch again. You're still braking and you're *just* finishing free-revving up.
7. Shift down.
8. Release clutch. At this point double-clutching is complete.
NOTES
In reality some of the steps overlap a great deal (but the entire sequence #2-9 is done under a second or even half second, otherwise it's besides the point). These pairs can practically be simultaneous: #2-3, 4-5, 6-7.
Few people know that, in general, 2&4 can be skipped entirely (but it takes some effort and puts stress on gears). Fewer know that 6&8 can also be skipped - under near-perfect rev-matching conditions. I recommend neither because, of couse, they're unreliable techniques.
Lastly, again, under emergency braking, simply step on the brake and clutch, and don't worry about the gas pedal!
Oh, one more thing. Another very useful application of DC is shifting into first gear when you're traveling at anything above 5 mph. For example, you might be on 2nd as you go from level road to uphill, at which point u might need to downshift to 1st without [/i]stopping[/i]. This is nearly impossible to do without DC.
And one one more thing. DC is also very useful for sudden downshifting and acceleration. Like when you're cruising at 75 mph on 6th and decide to race the M3 next to you by shifting into 4th. Without DC you will lose speed when engaging the lower gear. Not to mention a forward jerking motion (of the driver!).
http://www.imagestation.com/member/?name=bsoo
#15
04-20-2004, 09:13 PM
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Re: Heel Toe Shifting Possible?
bsoo, you just described H&T technique with double-clutching. Double-clutching is a thing of the past and is no longer a part of the H&T technique. Or at least you only need to double-clutch if you wanna downshift to 1st but even on the track they don't downshift to 1st.
MrElussive
03 G35C 6MT
MrElussive
03 G35C 6MT