tune VS untune
tune VS untune
Quick question..
Would a tune VQ35DE non revup motor with all the basic bolt ons like
-intake
-spacer
-HFC
-Full catback exhaust
be able to take down a untune VQ35DE non revup with the same bolt ons?
I ask this bc I want to know if it is worth getting a tune? I understand it helps smooth out the AFR and you gain more power and all but stock VQ35DE non revup dyno around 225~230hp to the wheels. Ive seen dynos of other VQ35DE non rev with all the bolt ons above and they reach ~250 without a tune. Then with a tune they average around ~265hp to the wheels.
Would it really be worth bumping up another 10 or so ponies, smoothing out the AFR, getting maps, higher revs, open throttle.. etc?
Would a tune VQ35DE non revup motor with all the basic bolt ons like
-intake
-spacer
-HFC
-Full catback exhaust
be able to take down a untune VQ35DE non revup with the same bolt ons?
I ask this bc I want to know if it is worth getting a tune? I understand it helps smooth out the AFR and you gain more power and all but stock VQ35DE non revup dyno around 225~230hp to the wheels. Ive seen dynos of other VQ35DE non rev with all the bolt ons above and they reach ~250 without a tune. Then with a tune they average around ~265hp to the wheels.
Would it really be worth bumping up another 10 or so ponies, smoothing out the AFR, getting maps, higher revs, open throttle.. etc?
Last edited by Algy; Aug 3, 2011 at 03:53 AM.
With all them breathing mods you will be running lean and probably detonating at rpms >4k. Always good to tune it! I had only the spacer and I was having this issue. check out my dyno post for sheet info.
What do you mean by detonating? BTW I have a Injen CAI, 5/16th MD spacer, Berk HFC, M2Performance 3'' HR y-pipe, and a full Nismo S-tune Catback exhaust.
are you not throwing a code for running lean?? i had almost same setup but k&n and z-tube with greddy sp2 exhaust, baselined at 242 hp and ended up at 260 hp and 250 lb tq so the tune is definately worth it. osiris FTW!!
A big issue with me right now is trying to figure out if I should keep this Injen CAI for the tune or not. I was told before I go in at Uprev to return back to stock bc the Injen CAI is just going to make me perform not as well as the stock intake with a z-tube.
Oh and when you say 242 baseline.. is that with all the mods? and after with the mods was 260?
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Lean conditions create knock, ping and it can cause engine failure. I installed just the 5/16 spacer and my car detonate at around 4k when I floor it. Its feels like a shudder in the engine. I was told to take it easy until im ready to tune it. Just search threads with detonate or ing.
No code yet. Hopefully no code at all. What was your setup? Im thinking about returning back to my stock z-tube and filter. Were you happy with those numbers?
A big issue with me right now is trying to figure out if I should keep this Injen CAI for the tune or not. I was told before I go in at Uprev to return back to stock bc the Injen CAI is just going to make me perform not as well as the stock intake with a z-tube.
A big issue with me right now is trying to figure out if I should keep this Injen CAI for the tune or not. I was told before I go in at Uprev to return back to stock bc the Injen CAI is just going to make me perform not as well as the stock intake with a z-tube.
the numbers were decent considering the 100 degree garage temp. the baseline was done in fourth however the final numbers were done in a 3rd gear pull. would pull better numbers in winter but i had to get it tuned just to have it run better and get rit of that code.
but i say do the k&n man cause our cars are real funky with heat soak and from everything ive seen the stock box is gonna be the best at preventing heatsoak and maximizing possible performance. p.s. the 06 airbox is a good upgrade if you come across one cheap
I thought without a tune the air mods end up tricking the ECU to dump fuel... which you think would be good. Except that it dumps WAY too much and ends up inhibiting your HP etc instead. There's a great thread about it where the myths about bolt on NA mods are debunked... specifically the spacers / filters / intake mods.
Check it out here.
Might not apply so much with your downstream mods / exhaust etc... but I'll say one thing about having gone with my intake mods without a tune, all I got was more exhaust bark and no bite. Drop in a transgo... got some harder shifting which was nice but no improvement in HP obviously... got a tune, HFC and catback exhaust... now we're talking but still in pretty low numbers- nowhere near what we're rated for. Low numbers, but still a hellofalot better than stock.
I'm not a car guy- everyone knows that... but believe me when I say that you're absolutely DUMPING your money in a garbage can if you get those mods without a tune and a guy who knows how to do it properly.
Check it out here.
Might not apply so much with your downstream mods / exhaust etc... but I'll say one thing about having gone with my intake mods without a tune, all I got was more exhaust bark and no bite. Drop in a transgo... got some harder shifting which was nice but no improvement in HP obviously... got a tune, HFC and catback exhaust... now we're talking but still in pretty low numbers- nowhere near what we're rated for. Low numbers, but still a hellofalot better than stock.
I'm not a car guy- everyone knows that... but believe me when I say that you're absolutely DUMPING your money in a garbage can if you get those mods without a tune and a guy who knows how to do it properly.
For the most part, I would say yes get the tune with those mods. It is quite likely the car is running lean and power being dumbed down a bit.
Keep in a mind of a few things though:
1) The 03/04 cars have narrow band 02 sensors and the ECUs don't seem to fight back against mods like the 04.5+ cars with the wideband O2 sensors. The old 03.0 sedans have completely different ECUs which tend to be even more open to mods. The coupes of the same year have different ECUs. Gains with a tune on a 03/04 car might not be as significant as those seen on the 04.5s. For every post where I've seen someone gain 10whp from a tune, I've read of another showing only 5whp.
2) These cars are funny on the dyno. I've seen numerous cases where these cars will gain 10whp across three dyno runs and with absolutely no changes to the car. It's like the ECU has to warm up to the idea that only the rear tires are spinning and adjust parameters accordingly. The point is, understand your data. Do at least three runs before and three runs after. I think a lot of these large gains from basic tuning has some dyno error in it. Most people only do three runs on the dyno so they may be comparing the base run against two tuned runs. This can skew the data a bit.
3) Many of the tunes have redefined throttle parameters (ie think Sprint Booster). The throttle input is increased a bit and this can mislead the mind into thinking there's actually more power.
4) Make sure the car is in a good state of tune before tuning.
5) Trash the CAI. The OEM airbox is the best for overall NA performance.
With all that said, I'd pull the trigger. Just be prepared that your gains may not be as significant......or they might be.
Keep in a mind of a few things though:
1) The 03/04 cars have narrow band 02 sensors and the ECUs don't seem to fight back against mods like the 04.5+ cars with the wideband O2 sensors. The old 03.0 sedans have completely different ECUs which tend to be even more open to mods. The coupes of the same year have different ECUs. Gains with a tune on a 03/04 car might not be as significant as those seen on the 04.5s. For every post where I've seen someone gain 10whp from a tune, I've read of another showing only 5whp.
2) These cars are funny on the dyno. I've seen numerous cases where these cars will gain 10whp across three dyno runs and with absolutely no changes to the car. It's like the ECU has to warm up to the idea that only the rear tires are spinning and adjust parameters accordingly. The point is, understand your data. Do at least three runs before and three runs after. I think a lot of these large gains from basic tuning has some dyno error in it. Most people only do three runs on the dyno so they may be comparing the base run against two tuned runs. This can skew the data a bit.
3) Many of the tunes have redefined throttle parameters (ie think Sprint Booster). The throttle input is increased a bit and this can mislead the mind into thinking there's actually more power.
4) Make sure the car is in a good state of tune before tuning.
5) Trash the CAI. The OEM airbox is the best for overall NA performance.
With all that said, I'd pull the trigger. Just be prepared that your gains may not be as significant......or they might be.
For the most part, I would say yes get the tune with those mods. It is quite likely the car is running lean and power being dumbed down a bit.
Keep in a mind of a few things though:
1) The 03/04 cars have narrow band 02 sensors and the ECUs don't seem to fight back against mods like the 04.5+ cars with the wideband O2 sensors. The old 03.0 sedans have completely different ECUs which tend to be even more open to mods. The coupes of the same year have different ECUs. Gains with a tune on a 03/04 car might not be as significant as those seen on the 04.5s. For every post where I've seen someone gain 10whp from a tune, I've read of another showing only 5whp.
2) These cars are funny on the dyno. I've seen numerous cases where these cars will gain 10whp across three dyno runs and with absolutely no changes to the car. It's like the ECU has to warm up to the idea that only the rear tires are spinning and adjust parameters accordingly. The point is, understand your data. Do at least three runs before and three runs after. I think a lot of these large gains from basic tuning has some dyno error in it. Most people only do three runs on the dyno so they may be comparing the base run against two tuned runs. This can skew the data a bit.
3) Many of the tunes have redefined throttle parameters (ie think Sprint Booster). The throttle input is increased a bit and this can mislead the mind into thinking there's actually more power.
4) Make sure the car is in a good state of tune before tuning.
5) Trash the CAI. The OEM airbox is the best for overall NA performance.
With all that said, I'd pull the trigger. Just be prepared that your gains may not be as significant......or they might be.
Keep in a mind of a few things though:
1) The 03/04 cars have narrow band 02 sensors and the ECUs don't seem to fight back against mods like the 04.5+ cars with the wideband O2 sensors. The old 03.0 sedans have completely different ECUs which tend to be even more open to mods. The coupes of the same year have different ECUs. Gains with a tune on a 03/04 car might not be as significant as those seen on the 04.5s. For every post where I've seen someone gain 10whp from a tune, I've read of another showing only 5whp.
2) These cars are funny on the dyno. I've seen numerous cases where these cars will gain 10whp across three dyno runs and with absolutely no changes to the car. It's like the ECU has to warm up to the idea that only the rear tires are spinning and adjust parameters accordingly. The point is, understand your data. Do at least three runs before and three runs after. I think a lot of these large gains from basic tuning has some dyno error in it. Most people only do three runs on the dyno so they may be comparing the base run against two tuned runs. This can skew the data a bit.
3) Many of the tunes have redefined throttle parameters (ie think Sprint Booster). The throttle input is increased a bit and this can mislead the mind into thinking there's actually more power.
4) Make sure the car is in a good state of tune before tuning.
5) Trash the CAI. The OEM airbox is the best for overall NA performance.
With all that said, I'd pull the trigger. Just be prepared that your gains may not be as significant......or they might be.
My car has never ever had sparks changed and has about 70,000 miles on it (2006 model). The oil is due for another change in another 1,600 miles.. The filter is still clean and only has 1,200 miles on it. Overall would it be in good state for the tune?
FYI my tune is tomorrow at Uprev at 1.
Stock box has already been reinstalled and CAI is gone!