disclaimer:

ok! first off.. this is an informative thread. the point of this thread is to understand fiberglass aerodynamics/bodykits in general. i am not here to bag on ANYONE... i want to share this information because it seems DAMN MANDATORY in this forum. if this thread is too long for you, sorry; but, you gotta read the whole damn thing, leave any more informative posts regarding to this thread or leave negative posts/feedback about me or this thread. also, please refer to silverbolt's sticky about the pro's and con's of FG kits. thank you.

thick vs thin? thicker doesn't mean stronger. price too expensive? building kits are expensive to ensure quality and a worthy product. by reading many threads with TS vs 3Fs, seems the consumer (automotive enthusiasts) are misinformed.

there are 3 basic types of fiberglass used in aerodynamics/bodykit manufacturing today. (prices vary... indicated median observation price)

1. chopped strand mat - strands of fiberglass garbled up like lint. because of the random structure, csm fg is not very strong at all. dirt cheap at $10 a yard for 38" width.


2. e-type - woven material that looks like carbon fiber with relatively high tensile strength. used in aerospace products. $15 a yard for 38" width.


3. s-type - woven material that looks like carbon fiber, with a higher tensile and impact strength than e-type. looks identical to e-type woven. $18 bucks a yard for 60" width.


these woven materials are now smothered with resins such as epoxy and polyester with a bit of catalyst to speed the curing process. these resins will heat up, harden and eventually take a rigid and concrete form... or will it?

ok.. now we got that part done. how do these manufacturers create the kit with these clothes? simple. first, they make a plug (the master design). some companies have skills of artisanship and use by hand... just like VS posted a long time ago about the 'secret wide body'. others use a CAD design and machined from clay. so we got the plug now. next, we need the mold, which is the female version of the plug. the mold is created to manufacture the exact same replica of the plug. the mold can be created by using wood, fiberglass and aluminum. CAD systems machine aluminum to create a mold that's virtually undestructable but is ridiculously expensive (think of 3-5 APS TT kits). FG molds will fade in due time because of the heat and abuse from the resin/catalyst.
so we got the plug, the mold and now we should build our kit!

haha.. there are 4 ways to build a composites kit out of fiberglass:

1. chopper gun - CSM fiberglass and resin is mixed into a bowl and shot through a gun onto the mold. weak and cheap.

2. wet layup/handlaid - lay the sheets of woven material onto the mold and stiple/brush/spray resin onto the sheets. the sheets will eventually harden and dry in atmosphere. density is not great and may not be uniform. could end up with porous material and WEAK if not done correctly.

3. vacuum bag - lay the sheets of woven material onto the mold, stiple/brush/spray resin onto the sheets and cover with a bag. the bag will be sucked into a full vacuum of 20+ inches to ensure the sheets and resin will conform to the mold FULLY. also, the material will be uniformly denser than wet layup/handlaid.

4. infusion - very similar to vacuum bagging. sheets are laid into mold. vacuum bag is covered with another tube sucking in the resin/catalyst. this method ensures the best resin to cloth ratio for a better strength to weight ratio.

X. autoclave - just like vacuum, however the whole mold is sent into an autoclave for extra pressure. best density formation but expensive. this method is used with pre-impregnated carbon fiber (dry carbon fiber) used on aerospace and motorsports programs, as it is too expensive of a method to use with fiberglass.

lastly, the curing process is very important, because this method of patience will give rise to fitment and quality issues. curing is the time for the product to be fully rigid in the mold. if a prematurely cured product has been plucked out from the mold, the product may be too soft and cure once out of the mold and therefore distort its shape.

so back to thin vs thick and expensive vs cheap?

thin... could be a lot denser, yet too weak for everyday use. thick... could be less dense, therefore extra material is needed for strength.

expensive... could have used an aluminum mold, or a mold per each product (like kaminari) to ensure the best fitment. cheap... could have used the same mold and distorted the replicated product or plucked out of the mold too early.

the difference is not just the price and thickness. it's the overall product.

my observations:

TS and other japanese products are TOP NOTCH when it comes to quality and fitment. as you can see, these japanese companies spend money and time to research and develop these parts worthy for your car. as far as the thickness, i have no clue... so i can't deduce a valid statement on the strength of the kit. i bet it would be just as strong as 3Fs's replica bumper, in my honest opinion. all in all, don't bag on TS because of the price... it's the product that makes the money worth while.

i've seen pictures of 3Fs's (or replica manufacturer) kits and they look terrific. just like an mp3 to a wav file, the superficial quality is pretty much the same, until i look at the back. i recall, a GReddy replica bumper was built from CSM (from G352NV's post; pictures have been taken off). also, these replicas have terrible fitment and quality issues. but if the kits can be fixed with labor and still cheaper than the original, by all means go for it. different strokes for different folks.

final note:

i am not affiliated with either 3Fs or TS. i hope this thread was informative to some of you.
i also recommend this for a beginner. i have it too. starting on my own project soon.

references and image links:
http://www.fibreglast.com/
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/4533.php
http://www.amazon.com
sticky from silverbolt!





pop quiz. which would you rather choose? think in terms of price, quality and strength.

Volk Racing (Rays) GT-C - original


Tenzo R APEX-5 - replica



have a nice day. my english sucks.

 

thanks panda for this post... I think it was really helpful information... when it comes to rims... I'd rather have the real deal... because different materials are used... but Fiber Glass compared to another fiber glass... will always be the same... real or replica... the only difference is quality... which bodyshops can correct...

 

very informative...........thanks..............sticky??

 

GOOD DEALS!

as far as your question about the Volk heels.........mang, Volk over Tenzo anyday. it's like flipping the N on NIKE's to S and calling them SIKE's. the Tenzo's will cost more in the end. craftsmanship, weight, pothole/dip's, etc. peeling also.

would you rather boink a blow up Tera Patrick, or the real deal???? lol.

 

the blow up isn't that bad! j/k

 

No one from Japan including Greddy / Ings / Top Secret uses anything but chopped fiberglass strand mat in their product. Don't believe me? Look on the inside of your authentic product. The only company I know that uses cloth mat (options 2 and 3 above) is Kaminari. The use of different clothes is negligible in terms of price as your prices aren't exactly accurate on the market today and it is not differentiated in price as much as you think.

Chopper gun straight sucks..... Lots of inconsistency, but then again, so does wet lay up if someone doesn't do it correctly. 90% of today's kits, whether replica or original will use wet lay up. A measly 5% will use chopper gun, and for them I really pity. Chopper gun however is used primarily outside of the United States right now. Vacuum bagging/infusion is usually saved for carbon fiber products as these necessitate the air pockets are taken out of the nice carbon finish. Autoclave is still saved primarily for the aerospace industry. There are maybe a handful (if that) small shops that do automotive items (for the general public, race teams do not count) in the autoclave, but mainly for uBER ballers who will pay for it.

Ummm if I am reading correctly, then I think what you said about Kaminari is "duh" statement. Like If I want to make star shaped jello, I'd use the star shapped cutter. I wouldn't use the star shaped cutter to make a round jello now would I? If by chance, you meant that Kaminari changes their mold every time they make something, you are very very wrong my friend - no one does that.

Indeed the JDM kits are top notch, but don't bring in stuff like coth mat and vacuum/infusion because they do not use those materials or methodologies to create their product. What I have noticed is that their QC standards are very high and they spend more time per item to ensure that it meets the QC.

 

Do you know exactly what their QC process is? I have never been able to find out how they QC their products.

 

Very informative thread

I used to have a pure carbon fiber front diffusor on my Honda that was custom made from an autoclave. It was about 1/8inch thick, but it was STRONG AS HELL!!!! When he first brought me the prototype, I said "hell no... thats way too thin! In one week, I'll tear that thing to shreads!" He then looked over at my friend, who was a big muscle bound monster of a person and asked him to try his hardest to break it. To my suprise, the only thing I saw break was my friend breaking a sweat just trying to make it crack!!!! I had them for many years... and lost them when I ran over a tire on the freeway in the middle of the night

 

this is a great thread for those who are contemplating on getting aftermarket kits and what to look for as for durability..

 

i wasn't aware that japanese aerodynamics companies used CSM mat. i would like to see some pictures because i don't have any aero kits on me or on my car. the median prices were plucked from several websites. although not the price of cloth manufacturers may pay, the point of the prices were to show a trend of increase in price to increase in strength per cloth.

well said. vacuum and infusion method is utilized not just to remove air pockets from the gelcoat layer, but also from within the layers of cloth and to promote full replicated volume. these days, carbon fiber hoods are sold from wet hand layup... mostly, the gelcoat finish is immaculate however the fitment may be compromised (judging by seeing some). i've seen a supra autoclaved CF head cover. perfect at $900.

ok. i was trying to explain, that kaminari produces a mold per each kit. once the mold has been used (perhaps once to a few times), it was destroyed for a new mold was produced for the next kit. it does sound stupid as it is time and fund consuming, but that is what i read in stuper street awhile back (yes, laugh at me). just passing the info, friend.

my apologies. i have only ASSUMED japanese companies would use top notch cloth material and more sophisticated methods, especially for the price and quality of the product. i had a kaminari kit on a '90 na mr2. i turned over a corner of a curb and the kit remained intact with major paint scars. the kit was composed of woven cloth fg. for $1000 USD, the kit was very much worth it because i can attest to the strength of the kit.

in general, this thread was not to be a debate between TS's kits vs 3Fs's kits. there are companies out there that use other cloths and methods utilized to produce their products. therefore, i felt the 'extra information' was necessary.

thanks.

i have to disagree with that. your bodyshop may correct the fitting, but not the overall quality of the kit. that is what i am trying to point out.

 

Ok, wealth of information.

But your $1000 spent on the Kaminari kit got you better quality than ANY Japanese kit I've ever seen. Their mold turnover rate is not very high right now, but they do take the time to clean and repair it over time (which some replica companies don't do, as they are only concerned with quantity).

When looking at a kit, it's the small things that matter - kind of like buying a car. Does the door on your car close with a nice THUD and have nice swivel points? Does it feel solid? On a kit, are the corners cut nice? Are the edges smoothed out? Are the gaps once installed big/small?

A Neon/G35/S4/whatever will all get you from point A to point B. The little things in between are what's costing you that arm and a leg.

 

There is also a lot to the Resins used. In the boat industry, there are several resins and some are far better than others. One would assume possibly incorrectly that the same holds true for fabric/resin mold created products such as noses, sides, etc. Love to know the resins used in car stuff.

 

You're opening a whole can of worms now...

 

Very nice write-up and gives a nice insight for those looking into aftermarket kits! Thanks!