3rd party independant tear down results of a failed VQ motor.
Originally Posted by KPierson
This entire situation is confusing because of the way the information has been presented.
The engine report posted is Vino's motors inspection. This engine ran for an unspecified amount of time 4 quarts low on oil. I'm not an engine builder, but I do have a mechanical background and I know that when you run a high performance machine with almost no oil things heat up, change size, and rub. To what degree I don't know, but this HAS to be taken in to consideration when looking at the component measurements and pictures in the report that Julian has posted. Julian also hand picked the inspector on Vino's motor (assumption) so there "may" be some bias in that report. The inspector for Rome's motor was picked by Rome and is considered an unbiased third party by both GTM and MRC.
The engine report posted is Vino's motors inspection. This engine ran for an unspecified amount of time 4 quarts low on oil. I'm not an engine builder, but I do have a mechanical background and I know that when you run a high performance machine with almost no oil things heat up, change size, and rub. To what degree I don't know, but this HAS to be taken in to consideration when looking at the component measurements and pictures in the report that Julian has posted. Julian also hand picked the inspector on Vino's motor (assumption) so there "may" be some bias in that report. The inspector for Rome's motor was picked by Rome and is considered an unbiased third party by both GTM and MRC.
I must step in and correct you at this point. The Motor from the first post is Vino's motor. The motr was NEVER RAN 4QT of oil low. I said "The motor burned/consumed 4QT of oil between oil changes" Meaning oil was constantly being added.. Even if the motor had run 4qt low, which it did not, the reason for the motors failure would be obviously OIL CONSUMPTION. Something Nissan themselved admitted they had a problem with and warrantied engine after engine for far less oil consumption. From the start this motor was doomed, due to faulty and poor craftmanship.
Originally Posted by KPierson
Although Julian posted the report on Vino's motor most of the conversation has been centered around Rome's car. There is NO 3rd party information available about Rome's car (yet). The reason why the 3rd party information about Rome's car is important is because Rome's car was NOT driven X amount of miles 4 quarts low on oil. The results of this inspection will have much more merit, as there are far fewer unknowns.
The only thing, and i repeat the ONLY THING that Sam had in question for the new motor was our timing of the motor. I have spoken with the 3rd party as little as 10 mins ago he would not release any of his findings to me, except to verify the timing on the motor was 100% correct. Case closed on our end.
Originally Posted by KPierson
In Vino's case it is easy for GTM to point fingers, and honestly I can't blame them. If I'm an engine builder and I hear one of my motors has been ran without oil I would fight tooth and nail to not warranty it, as that is considered abuse/neglect. No engine builder has control of what the internals of a motor will do running 4 quarts low on oil. In fact, dealerships won't offer warranty on your stock motor if you take it in for repair and they find it has no oil! Now, if the motor is burning oil, that is a COMPLETELY different subject, but as the owner of a boosted car it is the owners responsibility to check and maintain oil levels. The burning oil issue should have been fixed by GTM BEFORE it was able to cause more substantial damage.
Also Sam spent more time asking me for the invoice number for this motor than he did offering to repair it. What the hell does he need an invoice for it was the first and only motor he had prepaired for us in 2008, and to be quite honest, i dont think he ever sent a legible invoice to us..Why would he simply offer to fix it? He wasted time passing the busk around and holding merrit on the silly invoice topic..
Originally Posted by KPierson
Romes 2nd GTM motor, on the other hand was never driven. It would be much harder for GTM to "wash their hands" of this motor. There is no way one could perceive that the motor was abused. It was never tuned and never street/track driven by MRC or the customer.
Originally Posted by KPierson
The oil squirter issue isn't confusing at all. There was an obvious mistake made in the assembly and GTM has offered to send replacement squirters (although, I too wonder about what will keep the piston from breaking the replacement squirter - are they a low profile design or something???)
Now ask yourself, who is the REAL amatuer?
Originally Posted by KPierson
I have been accused of being "biased" in my posts already and hope that my efforts to clearify these points is not seen that way. I haven't chosen sides, I've just summarized the information posted in an attempt to inform people what is what in this thread. I, like many others, have no horse in this race, and I stand to gain/lose nothing if either shop were to close their doors tomorrow. To the best of my knowledge these are "facts" documented in this thread (besides where noted as assumptions).
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I will be recieving the report. I can say this its not as open and shut as some people think. They will explain the cause of my motor problem to me and what needs to be done to fix it. And as both parties agree who ever is at fault for whatever the problems may be will fix them. That is what ive been told this whole time so that is what I expect moving forward. Now that this third party as completed their report that again BOTH shops agreed to. I hope to be up on the road soon.
Originally Posted by Julian
Kevin,
I must step in and correct you at this point. The Motor from the first post is Vino's motor. The motr was NEVER RAN 4QT of oil low. I said "The motor burned/consumed 4QT of oil between oil changes" Meaning oil was constantly being added.. Even if the motor had run 4qt low, which it did not, the reason for the motors failure would be obviously OIL CONSUMPTION. Something Nissan themselved admitted they had a problem with and warrantied engine after engine for far less oil consumption. From the start this motor was doomed, due to faulty and poor craftmanship.
I must step in and correct you at this point. The Motor from the first post is Vino's motor. The motr was NEVER RAN 4QT of oil low. I said "The motor burned/consumed 4QT of oil between oil changes" Meaning oil was constantly being added.. Even if the motor had run 4qt low, which it did not, the reason for the motors failure would be obviously OIL CONSUMPTION. Something Nissan themselved admitted they had a problem with and warrantied engine after engine for far less oil consumption. From the start this motor was doomed, due to faulty and poor craftmanship.
Julian,
I got that information from this post by Sam:
Originally Posted by SAM@GTM
Engine #1 - Vino
This is the main engine and topic of discussion which started everything. I received a phone call from Julian claiming that the customer brought the car back complaining about engine noise. They checked the oil and found it to be 4-4.5 quarts low on oil. This is what Julian called his oil consumption report. The extent of his report was calling me to tell they had to add and excess of 4 qts of oil to the engine. I stated the following; if this engine had suffered from oil consumption, or oil leaks, etc this is a complete loss and the engine is done. I asked him if he does educate his customers to make sure they check their oil levels are checked frequently. I am not insinuating it is ok for and engine to burn excessive amounts of oil, but there is an acceptable amount of consumption and the customer has the responsibility of checking that oil as much as we have the responsibility of providing a good, sound, product. I told him at this stage that engine will have to be removed, looked at, and determine what exactly happened. I never brushed him off as he makes it seem.
This is the main engine and topic of discussion which started everything. I received a phone call from Julian claiming that the customer brought the car back complaining about engine noise. They checked the oil and found it to be 4-4.5 quarts low on oil. This is what Julian called his oil consumption report. The extent of his report was calling me to tell they had to add and excess of 4 qts of oil to the engine. I stated the following; if this engine had suffered from oil consumption, or oil leaks, etc this is a complete loss and the engine is done. I asked him if he does educate his customers to make sure they check their oil levels are checked frequently. I am not insinuating it is ok for and engine to burn excessive amounts of oil, but there is an acceptable amount of consumption and the customer has the responsibility of checking that oil as much as we have the responsibility of providing a good, sound, product. I told him at this stage that engine will have to be removed, looked at, and determine what exactly happened. I never brushed him off as he makes it seem.
Originally Posted by Julian
Actually, since you specialize in electronics, you really can not hold a valuable point in this topic or convesation IMPO...
Last edited by KPierson; Oct 27, 2008 at 06:33 PM.
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tainted 3rd party report?
Originally Posted by r0mey
I will be recieving the report. I can say this its not as open and shut as some people think. They will explain the cause of my motor problem to me and what needs to be done to fix it. And as both parties agree who ever is at fault for whatever the problems may be will fix them. That is what ive been told this whole time so that is what I expect moving forward. Now that this third party as completed their report that again BOTH shops agreed to. I hope to be up on the road soon.
Originally Posted by Julian
Ask Sam,
He has been calling there 10 times a day..We only were contacted once by the 3rd party.
He has been calling there 10 times a day..We only were contacted once by the 3rd party.
Last edited by Boosted D.D.; Oct 27, 2008 at 08:31 PM.
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Here's a long standing member (Alberto) on my350z not affiliated with MRC who also had a sleeved GTM motor fail on him. He has come forward and is speaking out about his experience with GTM. I thought you g35 guys should know about it.
http://my350z.com/forum/forced-induc...driver-13.html
Quote from one of the moderators:
http://my350z.com/forum/forced-induc...driver-13.html
Originally Posted by Alberto
My motor failed and it was a GTM motor.
What p!ssed me off more than the 1000whp advertising they used to put on these sleeved motors, is that I ran mine under 600whp (525whp most of the time), put less than 10 passes down the 1/4, and when it failed at 9000 miles I was told I "wasnt normal, I abuse cars, I take it 160mph which is crazy" and "I shouldnt expect more than about 8-12K out of the sleeved motors" Why the fawk did I spend $$$ on the "BEST" parts, shop and tuning to be fed BULL$HIT when it failed? Why do shops take credit for accomplishments and point fingers when there is a failure?
Funny that wasnt advertised when they were sold to the community 2 years ago as the only option for 500whp and up RELIABLY. More on my situation later this week, I have more than just opinions....
What p!ssed me off more than the 1000whp advertising they used to put on these sleeved motors, is that I ran mine under 600whp (525whp most of the time), put less than 10 passes down the 1/4, and when it failed at 9000 miles I was told I "wasnt normal, I abuse cars, I take it 160mph which is crazy" and "I shouldnt expect more than about 8-12K out of the sleeved motors" Why the fawk did I spend $$$ on the "BEST" parts, shop and tuning to be fed BULL$HIT when it failed? Why do shops take credit for accomplishments and point fingers when there is a failure?
Funny that wasnt advertised when they were sold to the community 2 years ago as the only option for 500whp and up RELIABLY. More on my situation later this week, I have more than just opinions....
Originally Posted by Alberto
You dont have to tell me that...I should have written down the BS that was told to me when it all went down. "sleeves are not for street cars" was a funny one. Oh no $hit I never saw that posted until they started failing left and right. I dont know how it would hold up on the track when I drive "easy" on the street in comparison...
Originally Posted by Alberto
Before you try to argue their side, keep in mind your entire second paragraph is something that wasnt presented to the community until a few months ago. Two plus years ago sleeves werent marketed as being "TRACK ONLY" parts, in fact they were pushed to the public by most top Z/G shops for builds above 500-550whp. There is some serious dishonesty in that.
Do you consider 525whp high amounts of power when the engine is advertised to handle 1000whp? Do you think its ok for shops to praise HKS head gaskets and then suddenly change their tune and say they are POS when they fail? Do you think its NORMAL for air to be introduced into the coolant system on a regular basis? It is NOT. You are clearly looking at my situation with todays knowledge, hindsight is always 20/20....
But to get to my point. And Ive discussed this with Sharif AND Sam. To be fair Sharif did what he could to get me back on the road, nothing is expected to be free, he did his job in helping me rebuild the motor.
Ive believed since I first had the car built that something was wrong with my GTM motor. Something likely machined incorrectly, not cleaned out properly, etc. Why do you think I believe that?
Well I have oil analysis from the first oil change to the last oil change on the motor that lasted 9000 miles. Not being stock parts you cannot expect metal contents to be anywhere NEAR stock levels right? This is what I was told when I had INCREASING numbers of different metals per Blackstone analysis in every oil change, essentially the issue was getting WORSE. The metal content should have been decreasing with age as the break in process occured.
I had the same signs as Romey, toast HG, scuffed cylinder walls and a set of ruined pistons which I was told hot coolant made them swell, c'mon with that BS
Well Sharif rebuilt the motor, Sam/GTM had no hand in the rebuild with Sleeves. First thing I do is send the oil (now have 2 samples on this motor) to Blackstone. What do I find? I find that the first sample is as expected "dirty" in regards to metal content. Second analysis the oil is damn near free of insane metal content, nearly back to stock levels and the car doesnt push coolant or introduce air into the system with much more power than before. My old motor was pushing coolant at 3500 miles, Im there now on the new one knock on wood no issues thus far.
I'll post the actual data tomorrow, I stand behind it, many of you know Blackstone is a respected company-they have no interest in any of this. I feel like Sam/GTM play like they are gods of building motors but the QC isnt there. An impressive facility does not equal impressive work, just ask AAM customers that. What sickens me is there are many cases of this, NOBODY speaks up, AND shop owners hide this $hit. I'll wait for Sam to come in here and try to discredit my 3rd party DATA like he always does when he gets accused of something.
Do you consider 525whp high amounts of power when the engine is advertised to handle 1000whp? Do you think its ok for shops to praise HKS head gaskets and then suddenly change their tune and say they are POS when they fail? Do you think its NORMAL for air to be introduced into the coolant system on a regular basis? It is NOT. You are clearly looking at my situation with todays knowledge, hindsight is always 20/20....
But to get to my point. And Ive discussed this with Sharif AND Sam. To be fair Sharif did what he could to get me back on the road, nothing is expected to be free, he did his job in helping me rebuild the motor.
Ive believed since I first had the car built that something was wrong with my GTM motor. Something likely machined incorrectly, not cleaned out properly, etc. Why do you think I believe that?
Well I have oil analysis from the first oil change to the last oil change on the motor that lasted 9000 miles. Not being stock parts you cannot expect metal contents to be anywhere NEAR stock levels right? This is what I was told when I had INCREASING numbers of different metals per Blackstone analysis in every oil change, essentially the issue was getting WORSE. The metal content should have been decreasing with age as the break in process occured.
I had the same signs as Romey, toast HG, scuffed cylinder walls and a set of ruined pistons which I was told hot coolant made them swell, c'mon with that BS
Well Sharif rebuilt the motor, Sam/GTM had no hand in the rebuild with Sleeves. First thing I do is send the oil (now have 2 samples on this motor) to Blackstone. What do I find? I find that the first sample is as expected "dirty" in regards to metal content. Second analysis the oil is damn near free of insane metal content, nearly back to stock levels and the car doesnt push coolant or introduce air into the system with much more power than before. My old motor was pushing coolant at 3500 miles, Im there now on the new one knock on wood no issues thus far.
I'll post the actual data tomorrow, I stand behind it, many of you know Blackstone is a respected company-they have no interest in any of this. I feel like Sam/GTM play like they are gods of building motors but the QC isnt there. An impressive facility does not equal impressive work, just ask AAM customers that. What sickens me is there are many cases of this, NOBODY speaks up, AND shop owners hide this $hit. I'll wait for Sam to come in here and try to discredit my 3rd party DATA like he always does when he gets accused of something.
Originally Posted by Alberto
I was told that HKS HG's are garbage and shouldnt be used in FI apps. Wow-thats funny because I can go back and show that shop the advertisement they put up on the forums months earlier to get everybody aboard the HKS bus....its that kind of $hit Im tired of seeing/hearing.
Sharif never found or came up with a plausible cause, only assumptions and mentioning me as a cause for driving my car for what it was built for.
The other shop in question threw Forged under the bus when I spoke to them, tuning was off, they arent engine builders-they cant assess problems like "they" could have, etc, etc. Real integrity between friends, shops, owners and customers in this community
Sharif never found or came up with a plausible cause, only assumptions and mentioning me as a cause for driving my car for what it was built for.
The other shop in question threw Forged under the bus when I spoke to them, tuning was off, they arent engine builders-they cant assess problems like "they" could have, etc, etc. Real integrity between friends, shops, owners and customers in this community
Originally Posted by Alberto
I have no bad blood with Sharif or FP.
GTM was never an option for helping me get on the road, this thread isnt about me complaining that Sam never helped, its about the fact that my issues are in line with Romey and other MRC customers, AND many Forged customers, jkenefic to name one that I personally know.
You guys know I have no love loss with Julian, but after reading Romeys symptoms which were identical to mine, and knowing of MANy GTM/sleeved failures, its time to speak up. I wouldnt let GTM build anything for me. Dont let Sam and his "years of experience" and nice story fool you, he couldnt fool me when he tried to discredit my oil analysis data on the phone.
He told me he didnt know why that analysis would have shown increasing metal content. But he would look into it and get back to me, the sole purpose being to find closure and so if it was his fault it wouldnt happen again. Of course I heard nothing back, but the funniest part is this. While he admitted he knew alot but not everything he was 100% sure the oil analysis data didnt show anything was wrong with his motor? ARE YOU KIDDING ME!?! Funny how the guy who "isnt an engine builder" put something together thats obviously been machined and assembeled correctly, the oil analysis proves it...
GTM was never an option for helping me get on the road, this thread isnt about me complaining that Sam never helped, its about the fact that my issues are in line with Romey and other MRC customers, AND many Forged customers, jkenefic to name one that I personally know.
You guys know I have no love loss with Julian, but after reading Romeys symptoms which were identical to mine, and knowing of MANy GTM/sleeved failures, its time to speak up. I wouldnt let GTM build anything for me. Dont let Sam and his "years of experience" and nice story fool you, he couldnt fool me when he tried to discredit my oil analysis data on the phone.
He told me he didnt know why that analysis would have shown increasing metal content. But he would look into it and get back to me, the sole purpose being to find closure and so if it was his fault it wouldnt happen again. Of course I heard nothing back, but the funniest part is this. While he admitted he knew alot but not everything he was 100% sure the oil analysis data didnt show anything was wrong with his motor? ARE YOU KIDDING ME!?! Funny how the guy who "isnt an engine builder" put something together thats obviously been machined and assembeled correctly, the oil analysis proves it...
Originally Posted by USN HM 350Z
I can back this as I actually have a copy of that report from Alberto (Mar 28,2007) when I was doing some research on UOA's and built motors.
I kept it on the down low as he didn't want to call anyone out at that point.
I kept it on the down low as he didn't want to call anyone out at that point.
Originally Posted by Alberto
Thank you. I will post the abnormal wear history tomorrow of GTM's motor, and the normal analysis that I should have received the first time that I now have with Forged's motor. This whole situation has upset me on many different levels (financially to name one)
Im doing my best to keep this civil, free of insults and direspect. The last thing I want are my posts to dissapear or to be banned for no reason. The prices of these engines that are failing is highway robbery and its time people know that. How many people have to speak up with the same problems about the same shop before they believe it? If this was AAM people would be saying "of course we knew this would happen" and thats not fair.
Im doing my best to keep this civil, free of insults and direspect. The last thing I want are my posts to dissapear or to be banned for no reason. The prices of these engines that are failing is highway robbery and its time people know that. How many people have to speak up with the same problems about the same shop before they believe it? If this was AAM people would be saying "of course we knew this would happen" and thats not fair.
Originally Posted by Alberto
This comunity knows I share everything, the good, the bad, its a learning process for us all in the end.
When I had suspicions of the GTM motor not being right I started a thread here in the FI forum asking members to send oil to Blackstone (no I dont work for them btw) so we could collect a database of results/metal content vs build types.
Do you know how many I have received? ZERO All you sleeved guys dont say I didnt try...
When I had suspicions of the GTM motor not being right I started a thread here in the FI forum asking members to send oil to Blackstone (no I dont work for them btw) so we could collect a database of results/metal content vs build types.
Do you know how many I have received? ZERO All you sleeved guys dont say I didnt try...
Originally Posted by Alberto
Another thing to note, myself and Rome...
3.5L Darton sleeved motor from GTM
Same Turbo kits, different engine managements, different TUNERS, same fate----> headlift, air in the system, pushing coolant like mad, blown headgasket, damaged cylinders and pistons. I find it hard to believe that Sharif and Julian's tuning sealed the same fate into both motors.
3.5L Darton sleeved motor from GTM
Same Turbo kits, different engine managements, different TUNERS, same fate----> headlift, air in the system, pushing coolant like mad, blown headgasket, damaged cylinders and pistons. I find it hard to believe that Sharif and Julian's tuning sealed the same fate into both motors.
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More...
I hope the moderators here don't do this:
Originally Posted by Alberto
What about Alex's car? It had issues just like others described above including HL. Ask Alex to post up the details and the excuses Sam gave him. You and most members dont know 1/2 of what goes on in this community, that is not a stab at you Im just saying the truth. Ive been here since February of 2003 IIRC I know tons of people and stories but everybody is scared to drop negative press on the big guys. Well being a victim of what I feel and know was incorrect machining to say the least its time. I should have done this sooner.
Originally Posted by Alberto
I can easily name 10 guys with headlifting GTM sleeved motors. From easy driving to harder, from low miles to "higher" mileage motors, from the failures occuring on the dyno to the street. All the same issues, from the same shop. GTM cant come up with enough excuses and EVIDENCE to prove they arent at fault, but Sam will try and still people will believe him, you cant save them all. That whole "we have less than a 3% failure rate" is just silly talk on their part. Like I said earlier, if this had been another shop, members would be asking for the site admins to not allow them to be sponsors.
Originally Posted by Alberto
Copy my posts over while you can, I have a feeling by morning the thread will be edited...
Originally Posted by KPierson
I have read every post in this thread thoroughly and have taken the time to understand (almost) everything posted, unlike many of the "selective readers".
I say everybody should just sit out without adding their two cents and let them handle this themselves so there aren't any biased opinions from any viewers because of someone else's posts. If you knew the situations well, and really know what you're talking about when it comes to building motors, I would have nothing to say about your posts.
The way you're posting it really sounds like you still have something against Julian. I don't know either shop, but I'd like to hear the truths, not a story twisted by the way someone not involved sees it. Thank you.
Originally Posted by dofu
I'm sure there are plenty who have been reading every post like you have and IMO, coming in with an opinion on things when you understand "almost" every post is not good enough.
I said that I understand "almost" everything for two reasons - 1. I'm fairly certain there is information that is being witheld and 2. there are some major contridictions between both parties stories.
My intentions were not to back/bash MRC or to back/bash GTM - I just wanted to reinforce that the report posted belongs to Vinos motor and that when the report regarding Rome's motor (from an unbiased independant 3rd party) has yet to be published. At the time, as I posted in a later thread, I was under the impression that Vino's motor had ran 4 to 4.5 quarts low on oil simply for the fact that Sam posted this information and nobody contested it. Once Julian posted that that wasn't true I changed my original post to reflect that.