3rd party independant tear down results of a failed VQ motor.
Originally Posted by TURBOTOM
Mabe GTM builds terrible motors, and MRC sucks at tunning them.
Just wanted to call out both shops, to keep this pointless drama going.
Just wanted to call out both shops, to keep this pointless drama going.
The inspection report has been hosted.. However, it is NOT 393kb, it is 17.3 megs. It's also a .doc file, not a .pdf file.
http://www.KPtechnologies.com/g35dri...Cblueprint.doc
Julian correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the exact same report that is posted in the first post of this thread?
http://www.KPtechnologies.com/g35dri...Cblueprint.doc
Julian correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the exact same report that is posted in the first post of this thread?
Originally Posted by KPierson
The inspection report has been hosted.. However, it is NOT 393kb, it is 17.3 megs. It's also a .doc file, not a .pdf file.
http://www.KPtechnologies.com/g35dri...Cblueprint.doc
Julian correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the exact same report that is posted in the first post of this thread?
http://www.KPtechnologies.com/g35dri...Cblueprint.doc
Julian correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the exact same report that is posted in the first post of this thread?
This is a very hard subject to talk about, because both party's involved are putting their livelihoods (their business) on the line. I get scared when i see threads like this because word of mouth is everything. I know that both party's will lose customers and business from this for one reason or another. 
I personally have been sitting here deciding if i want to pick a side and have chosen not to because i am only going off of what i read and don't really know the true story sense i wasn't involved.
I think its good to bring up problems and inform people so that they can make a better decision but when its something as big as this that could destroy someones livelihood i don't know if it should be brought up.
I personally have been sitting here deciding if i want to pick a side and have chosen not to because i am only going off of what i read and don't really know the true story sense i wasn't involved.
I think its good to bring up problems and inform people so that they can make a better decision but when its something as big as this that could destroy someones livelihood i don't know if it should be brought up.
Last edited by Gbiker; Oct 26, 2008 at 08:58 PM.
This a lose/lose situation for every one involved, it's very unfortunate that things escalated this far but something positive will come out of this avoidable mess. The community will learn a lot from it, they will learn who is the real GTM and the real MRC and to how avoid finding your self caught between company cross fire.
Doing what we do (this goes for every real business in the performance market) is very challenging and to be able to take these stock cars through the transformation into super car category will require a lot of systems in place.
My point is that from first step that you (the customer) choose a shop to do your work, the engine comes out of the car, engine being built, engine put back, engine fires for the first time, car tuned, customer up keep after taking delivery, all these steps plays an important roll in the success or the failure of your project - short and long term.
Now in this current situation, once there was a failure or a concern (due to a bad engine, bad install, bad tune or anything of that matter whether it is our fault or MRCs short comings) things have to be handled in a professional mater. We have to be level headed, the end user (our mutual customer) has to be our first priority - not our personal motives.
MRCs PROFESSIONALISM
MRC choses to make this personal as usual because he is being Julian. There are very few companies on these forums that MRC has not waged a war on at some point or another. This on top of all the customers that have been attacked and threaten by him. He has been banned so many times, to the point he was banned permanently, it is impossible to resolve issues and communicate with somebody in a such state of mind. He is so angry at the world that when Jason Sieble made Turbo Trixs a PRO EFi dealer and not him, he called me to tell me how upset he is that jason did that, he went and bought all the domain names pertaining to proefi so he can redirect them to his web site. This is the true MRC.
Below are some links that show MRCs professionalism:
http://my350z.com/forum/forced-induc...f-philthy.html
http://my350z.com/forum/forced-induc...torsports.html
MRCs ETHICS
Trust is everything and when you have that in question, it becomes impossible to resolve anything - how can you work with someone you can't trust and vice versa. Julian will lie and fabricate info, pics, statements, to prove he is right, this guy will do anything to win an argument. There for, nothing this guy says can be trusted.
Here are examples of Julian's blatant lies:
MRCs Technical Ability
I helped Julian attain the HKS Pro dealer status, I helped him learn the VPro even after the training HKS gives, because he was left with many questions. On Romes car he didn't even know how to switch maps with the Navigator, but because he wouldn't speak to me, Rome had to call and ask me how to do. If he won't speak to me about something has simple as this, how can we ever resolve any other issues?
When Julian would call me to ask me what I thought about how much timing he was running on his pump gas tunes, I would always tell him it was to aggressive and would lead to problems.
Same thing with setting up the Vpro and/or Knock Amp, maps, etc. All the questions he asked are we lead me to believe he is an amateur and does not have a good grasp on what he is doing.
Julain accuses our headstuds of being torqued improperly and inconsistently, yet the method he is using to check the torque on the head studs is completely wrong and will not give you anywhere close to an accurate reading, as a matter of fact he called Sharif@forged telling him how he checked the torque and Sharif told him there is no way you can determine the previous values based on the way he was checking the torque. All these signs are an indication of MRCs technical ability.
Engine #1 - Vino
This is the main engine and topic of discussion which started everything. I received a phone call from Julian claiming that the customer brought the car back complaining about engine noise. They checked the oil and found it to be 4-4.5 quarts low on oil. This is what Julian called his oil consumption report. The extent of his report was calling me to tell they had to add and excess of 4 qts of oil to the engine. I stated the following; if this engine had suffered from oil consumption, or oil leaks, etc this is a complete loss and the engine is done. I asked him if he does educate his customers to make sure they check their oil levels are checked frequently. I am not insinuating it is ok for and engine to burn excessive amounts of oil, but there is an acceptable amount of consumption and the customer has the responsibility of checking that oil as much as we have the responsibility of providing a good, sound, product. I told him at this stage that engine will have to be removed, looked at, and determine what exactly happened. I never brushed him off as he makes it seem.
The next time this case has come up, is when we were dealing with Romey's engine. I called Julian on his cell phone, as a matter of fact he was on vacation with his family, to discuss Romeys engine, and he brought up everything under the sun - he was talking about Zoni's engine, Vino's engine, Romey's engine, dougs engine, anything he can throw at me. How can you handle anything when everything is being thrown at you at the same time. I told him I couldn't even follow the conversation because he jumps around so much, I wanted to focus on one engine at a time so we can get these issues resolved. It turned out to be a waste of a 45 min conversation with Julian just blaming and making accusations, being VERY defensive.
After this, Julian did call me one time, which I did miss his phone call - but it was only one call. Several weeks later we spoke about Romes engine and we had a 3 way conversation with Romey regarding his situation, that was the last time I spoke with Julian, next thing we know he makes this post on the boards with out providing us the tools and information we need to determine the cause of these failures.
Vino does still not have his car to this day.
Solution: MRC can send us the engine back so we can determine the failure and take care of the problem if it is on our end. Which is what should have been done in the first place. Has far as shipping, R&R, etc. no company covers these costs, that is not part of any warranty. Not even Cosworth will cover these costs and we know that from experience - incidentals are never covered. MRCs makes a profit on these engines, and that is why it is his responsibility to cover incidentals at his cost.
Also, how does an engine, that was built so poorly according to Julian, achieve these results?: http://my350z.com/forum/shop-builds/...ne-merlot.html
When ever we have had an engine problem in house, we know right away on the dyno, it makes noise, blows smoke, won't make power, etc. We have never had an engine leave that performed well on the dyno and our drive test that has come back as a failure.
There is a pattern with Julian, the engines get installed, make good power, everyone is happy, then the engines don't last - Why have we only had this problem with you Julian? Our of over 200 engines built out of our machine shop.
Doing what we do (this goes for every real business in the performance market) is very challenging and to be able to take these stock cars through the transformation into super car category will require a lot of systems in place.
My point is that from first step that you (the customer) choose a shop to do your work, the engine comes out of the car, engine being built, engine put back, engine fires for the first time, car tuned, customer up keep after taking delivery, all these steps plays an important roll in the success or the failure of your project - short and long term.
Now in this current situation, once there was a failure or a concern (due to a bad engine, bad install, bad tune or anything of that matter whether it is our fault or MRCs short comings) things have to be handled in a professional mater. We have to be level headed, the end user (our mutual customer) has to be our first priority - not our personal motives.
MRCs PROFESSIONALISM
MRC choses to make this personal as usual because he is being Julian. There are very few companies on these forums that MRC has not waged a war on at some point or another. This on top of all the customers that have been attacked and threaten by him. He has been banned so many times, to the point he was banned permanently, it is impossible to resolve issues and communicate with somebody in a such state of mind. He is so angry at the world that when Jason Sieble made Turbo Trixs a PRO EFi dealer and not him, he called me to tell me how upset he is that jason did that, he went and bought all the domain names pertaining to proefi so he can redirect them to his web site. This is the true MRC.
Below are some links that show MRCs professionalism:
http://my350z.com/forum/forced-induc...f-philthy.html
http://my350z.com/forum/forced-induc...torsports.html
MRCs ETHICS
Trust is everything and when you have that in question, it becomes impossible to resolve anything - how can you work with someone you can't trust and vice versa. Julian will lie and fabricate info, pics, statements, to prove he is right, this guy will do anything to win an argument. There for, nothing this guy says can be trusted.
Here are examples of Julian's blatant lies:
Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
Hey Julian,
We have talked about a lot of things in the past, but I have never said that a couple of GTM engines came apart on startup. Because that is not the case. Every single one started up just fine. Please don't put words into my mouth, or exaggerate our conversations...please. I am staying out of this discussion for the most part. You and I are on good terms, and I would like to keep it respectful and keep it that way.
As I told you over the phone, several months ago, the main reason we stopped using GTM engines is because of the lead times and shipping costs, since we are on the other side of the country. And because we consume a lot of engines..sometimes 5 engines in a month or more, we just needed to bring things in house to turn stuff around faster. Do I feel better about doing the assembly in house? Yes! Does it save us and our customer's money? Yes! Can I keep a closer eye on what my guys are doing? Yes!
But that doesn't mean that GTM products are bad..not at all.
They have sold probably 100 or more engines, we have purchased at least 5-10 that I can recall...strokers...short block, and cylinder heads. The cylinder heads in my Time Attack car are GTM heads...over 3 years old now.
Now I am not going to sit here and say that GTM is perfect, or FP is perfect, or Julian is perfect. We are all human, and can all make mistakes. I am just trying to figure out how you got 5-6 bad engines from GTM, when very few others are having an reliability issues with the motors?
And lastly, GTM and MRC have a business relationship..correct? I find it hard to believe, that if Sam was approached with an issue, you would walk away from it. Why do you have to do all the blasting on the internet forums, instead of discussiing this privately and come to some kind of good solution?
We have talked about a lot of things in the past, but I have never said that a couple of GTM engines came apart on startup. Because that is not the case. Every single one started up just fine. Please don't put words into my mouth, or exaggerate our conversations...please. I am staying out of this discussion for the most part. You and I are on good terms, and I would like to keep it respectful and keep it that way.
As I told you over the phone, several months ago, the main reason we stopped using GTM engines is because of the lead times and shipping costs, since we are on the other side of the country. And because we consume a lot of engines..sometimes 5 engines in a month or more, we just needed to bring things in house to turn stuff around faster. Do I feel better about doing the assembly in house? Yes! Does it save us and our customer's money? Yes! Can I keep a closer eye on what my guys are doing? Yes!
But that doesn't mean that GTM products are bad..not at all.
They have sold probably 100 or more engines, we have purchased at least 5-10 that I can recall...strokers...short block, and cylinder heads. The cylinder heads in my Time Attack car are GTM heads...over 3 years old now.
Now I am not going to sit here and say that GTM is perfect, or FP is perfect, or Julian is perfect. We are all human, and can all make mistakes. I am just trying to figure out how you got 5-6 bad engines from GTM, when very few others are having an reliability issues with the motors?
And lastly, GTM and MRC have a business relationship..correct? I find it hard to believe, that if Sam was approached with an issue, you would walk away from it. Why do you have to do all the blasting on the internet forums, instead of discussiing this privately and come to some kind of good solution?
Originally Posted by Julian
Engine was removed from the car, and fixed all costs covered by us.... That is customer service. I can send GTM the bill if you would like to stand behind your product. However there was no need to ship a motor across the country when we knew what the issue was and could fix it right at our facility. A mutual trus and working together would have been GTM offering to absorb the cost of repairing the motor at our facility which is the practical thing to do.However Sam cares more about the mighty dollar than trust and integrity. We ate over $3200 in labor on that job...
Thank you GTM!
Thank you GTM!
I helped Julian attain the HKS Pro dealer status, I helped him learn the VPro even after the training HKS gives, because he was left with many questions. On Romes car he didn't even know how to switch maps with the Navigator, but because he wouldn't speak to me, Rome had to call and ask me how to do. If he won't speak to me about something has simple as this, how can we ever resolve any other issues?
When Julian would call me to ask me what I thought about how much timing he was running on his pump gas tunes, I would always tell him it was to aggressive and would lead to problems.
Same thing with setting up the Vpro and/or Knock Amp, maps, etc. All the questions he asked are we lead me to believe he is an amateur and does not have a good grasp on what he is doing.
Julain accuses our headstuds of being torqued improperly and inconsistently, yet the method he is using to check the torque on the head studs is completely wrong and will not give you anywhere close to an accurate reading, as a matter of fact he called Sharif@forged telling him how he checked the torque and Sharif told him there is no way you can determine the previous values based on the way he was checking the torque. All these signs are an indication of MRCs technical ability.
Engine #1 - Vino
This is the main engine and topic of discussion which started everything. I received a phone call from Julian claiming that the customer brought the car back complaining about engine noise. They checked the oil and found it to be 4-4.5 quarts low on oil. This is what Julian called his oil consumption report. The extent of his report was calling me to tell they had to add and excess of 4 qts of oil to the engine. I stated the following; if this engine had suffered from oil consumption, or oil leaks, etc this is a complete loss and the engine is done. I asked him if he does educate his customers to make sure they check their oil levels are checked frequently. I am not insinuating it is ok for and engine to burn excessive amounts of oil, but there is an acceptable amount of consumption and the customer has the responsibility of checking that oil as much as we have the responsibility of providing a good, sound, product. I told him at this stage that engine will have to be removed, looked at, and determine what exactly happened. I never brushed him off as he makes it seem.
The next time this case has come up, is when we were dealing with Romey's engine. I called Julian on his cell phone, as a matter of fact he was on vacation with his family, to discuss Romeys engine, and he brought up everything under the sun - he was talking about Zoni's engine, Vino's engine, Romey's engine, dougs engine, anything he can throw at me. How can you handle anything when everything is being thrown at you at the same time. I told him I couldn't even follow the conversation because he jumps around so much, I wanted to focus on one engine at a time so we can get these issues resolved. It turned out to be a waste of a 45 min conversation with Julian just blaming and making accusations, being VERY defensive.
After this, Julian did call me one time, which I did miss his phone call - but it was only one call. Several weeks later we spoke about Romes engine and we had a 3 way conversation with Romey regarding his situation, that was the last time I spoke with Julian, next thing we know he makes this post on the boards with out providing us the tools and information we need to determine the cause of these failures.
Vino does still not have his car to this day.
Solution: MRC can send us the engine back so we can determine the failure and take care of the problem if it is on our end. Which is what should have been done in the first place. Has far as shipping, R&R, etc. no company covers these costs, that is not part of any warranty. Not even Cosworth will cover these costs and we know that from experience - incidentals are never covered. MRCs makes a profit on these engines, and that is why it is his responsibility to cover incidentals at his cost.
Also, how does an engine, that was built so poorly according to Julian, achieve these results?: http://my350z.com/forum/shop-builds/...ne-merlot.html
When ever we have had an engine problem in house, we know right away on the dyno, it makes noise, blows smoke, won't make power, etc. We have never had an engine leave that performed well on the dyno and our drive test that has come back as a failure.
There is a pattern with Julian, the engines get installed, make good power, everyone is happy, then the engines don't last - Why have we only had this problem with you Julian? Our of over 200 engines built out of our machine shop.
Engine #2 - Zoni
A quote from George's post earlier in this thread:
Since everyone is so eager to get some answers, I will respond to one of the engines I have information on in the meantime while we wait for the 3rd party inspection for the final motor.
This is going to be in response to the comments made about the engine with the broken oil squirters.
Julian PM'd Sam and let him know they were replacing the oil pan on this car, and upon removal found the broken oil squirters.
Sam picked up the phone and called Julian asking to provide the invoice number for this engine so he can look up build card to determine what pistons were used in this engine and who made them. If we need to call the manufacturer and see why their pistons broke the oil squirters, they will need the build sheet number for the pistons, which we cannot get without the invoice number from Julian.
Julian told Sam he would get back to him with the information. Days passed by with no information from Julian. Sam called Julian again asking for the information, he was busy and said he had not gotten a chance to get this paperwork. Keep in mind we cannot do anything until we get the invoice number to see which engine this was. To this day no information was ever provided from Julian to Sam to resolve this issues. Sam never said or implied that we will not take care of the problem, keep in mind that this issue is 100% caused by the piston manufacturer, but we were the builder of the engine and take full responsibility for it.
We still do not know what has happened with this engine, is it still running or not, and if anything has been done to correct the problem, Julian has left us in the dark. This is a clear example of whenever there is a problem we have to work together to take care of the customer and put them back on the road ASAP.
I have known Sam for over 2 years now, and I have never once seen him deny any type of warranty on any of his products that were in fact his fault, it is unfortunate that in this particular case he will be at a loss because of a piston manufacturer error, but he will stand behind it, as he always does with his products.
Please be patient with us, as we are awaiting the inspection of the final motor to end this debate once and for all. Thank you.
-George
Julian replies to this post, claiming that he has fixed the engine he is the only one standing behind GTM's engines. The interesting part is I have spoken to Dave Zoni yesterday (the owner of the car) and he informed me that the car is doing well, and to this day the oil squirters have not been repaired/replaced. He asked me my opinion of repairing it or not, I told him it should be taken care of and I will supply him with the parts need to repair the car free of charge. The engine does not have to be removed for this type of job and is a rather simple repair.
We had a good conversation, he stated that he was very happy with the car, the engine, and he still thinks that we are the best and we know what we are doing - straight from the customers mouth. Julian claims that if we are so professional how did we miss the oil squirters hitting the pistons. The oil squirters were not discovered during assembly because if they did make contact you cannot miss it or over look it. The pistons obviously expanded, and most likely under high rpm loads, broke the oil squirters. This is a defect in the piston manufacturing and as we have stated time after time we will take full responsibility for the problem, but can't fix anything if Julian won't communicate or work with us in this matter.
Now Julian, you want us to pay you $3,200 for doing nothing? since the customer told us the oil squirters have still not been fixed, who is using smoke and mirrors now?
Made good power for having broken oil squirters: http://my350z.com/forum/shop-builds/...ne-merlot.html
Engine#3 - r0mey
This has got to be the biggest let down and disappointment out of all the cases. MRC bought an engine for romey back around 7/2007, it was installed and tuned by MRC. MRC posted the happy results as usual (http://my350z.com/forum/shop-builds/...built-day.html) I have always been in communication with romey and everything was always running great, not even one single complaint/issue. The car was driven for 8,000 miles like this making over 550rwhp DD, until Julian decided to retune the car for meth injection and to make big numbers to demonstrate his abilities. During tuning the car lifted the head. The question is how an improper machines/built engine last 8,000 hard driven miles, and then magically fail when it is being tuned. There is only one variable that changed here, and that variable is the tune.
I received a threating PM from Julian, I replied simply saying we should set up a conference call between the 3 of us. He stated that the engine had suffered from headlift, I told him to let me have the engine I will replace the head gasket, double check it, and send it back to him in less than a weeks time. At that point I had no idea the amount of damage this engine had incurred.
We received the engine preformed our own tear down inspection, one piston was severely damaged due to excessive heat in that cylinder, the engine has been overheated on one bank only, we had sent the piston to Arias for inspection, and the report from Arias stated that the piston was showing early signs of detonation. The snout of the crank shaft on the key was damaged and turned blue from leaving the harmonic balancer loose. Also we found abnormal wear on one camshaft which appeared to be a manufacturing defect. To this day we had never denied warranty on this camshaft, this is the only case that ever surfaced.
It was our conclusion that after this engine had been driven for 8,000 miles, and failing in the process of a tuning session, that this is not something we should be responsible for. I told romey I would help him out and I will take care of it, I kept my word and sent him a complete fresh engine, brand new pistons, and bearings for no charge. The only thing romey paid for was the following:
Camshaft upgrade from Stage1 to Stage 2
Camshaft clearancing and adjustments
Headgaskets
Upgraded Lifters
ECU Flash
Crankshaft
The reason romey had to pay for new camshafts was because he upgraded from stage 1 to stage 2, if he had stuck with stage 1 cams, we would have warrantied the ONE cam that was defective and he would have had no out of pocket expense as far as the camshafts go. I said the following, I will take care of the shortblock as I promised, but you will have to pay for the cam upgrade, the flash, and I am not going to pay for MRC's incompetence of damaging the crank. Once the metal is over heated to the point where is becomes blue, the integrity of the crank is comprised and we did not feel comfortable re-using it.
At no point did romey have any objection at what he was being charged for. We shipped the engine thinking it would be installed ASAP, but the engine sat there for about a month before they began the installation. I must have called romey at least twice a week making sure everything is ok. Just to clarify we shipped the block and heads, not an assembled longblock. When the engine was installed, I receive a phone call from romey and matt stating that the engine does not seem to be running on one bank, meaning only half the engine was working. I asked him if he had any codes, matt stated there were no codes.
Next conversation we had is between romey, me, and julian on 3 way, were Julian stated that the engine had misfire codes on only one bank. So it went from running on one bank only, with no CEL, to CEL with codes on only one bank, to engine didn't fire on start up. So many inconsistencies. I suggested that we send the car to a 3rd party out of state and I would pay for the transport so we may get an unbiased opinion. Romey came back and picked a local shop he wanted to do the 3rd part inspection and we agreed. We are still waiting on this report, it has been about a week and are responding sooner than anticipated due to all the comments from MRC.
Even after taking care of an engine that was damaged due to improper tuning and negligence we have suffered a charge back on romeys engine.
We will respond with further comments once the 3rd parts inspection is complete.
Engine #4 - Dougs engine.
This is the only other engine we have sold Julian, do not know where he got 6, it has only been 4. We have never heard anything negative of dougs engine that was on our end, from doug or julian.
We have no problem taking care of problems that may arise that are our fault, we are all human, and we all have good and bad days. If something comes up that is our fault we take care of it as much as any other reputable business in the high performance industry.
SAM
GT MOTORSPORTS
A quote from George's post earlier in this thread:
Originally Posted by George@GTM
Since everyone is so eager to get some answers, I will respond to one of the engines I have information on in the meantime while we wait for the 3rd party inspection for the final motor.
This is going to be in response to the comments made about the engine with the broken oil squirters.
Julian PM'd Sam and let him know they were replacing the oil pan on this car, and upon removal found the broken oil squirters.
Sam picked up the phone and called Julian asking to provide the invoice number for this engine so he can look up build card to determine what pistons were used in this engine and who made them. If we need to call the manufacturer and see why their pistons broke the oil squirters, they will need the build sheet number for the pistons, which we cannot get without the invoice number from Julian.
Julian told Sam he would get back to him with the information. Days passed by with no information from Julian. Sam called Julian again asking for the information, he was busy and said he had not gotten a chance to get this paperwork. Keep in mind we cannot do anything until we get the invoice number to see which engine this was. To this day no information was ever provided from Julian to Sam to resolve this issues. Sam never said or implied that we will not take care of the problem, keep in mind that this issue is 100% caused by the piston manufacturer, but we were the builder of the engine and take full responsibility for it.
We still do not know what has happened with this engine, is it still running or not, and if anything has been done to correct the problem, Julian has left us in the dark. This is a clear example of whenever there is a problem we have to work together to take care of the customer and put them back on the road ASAP.
I have known Sam for over 2 years now, and I have never once seen him deny any type of warranty on any of his products that were in fact his fault, it is unfortunate that in this particular case he will be at a loss because of a piston manufacturer error, but he will stand behind it, as he always does with his products.
Please be patient with us, as we are awaiting the inspection of the final motor to end this debate once and for all. Thank you.
-George
Julian replies to this post, claiming that he has fixed the engine he is the only one standing behind GTM's engines. The interesting part is I have spoken to Dave Zoni yesterday (the owner of the car) and he informed me that the car is doing well, and to this day the oil squirters have not been repaired/replaced. He asked me my opinion of repairing it or not, I told him it should be taken care of and I will supply him with the parts need to repair the car free of charge. The engine does not have to be removed for this type of job and is a rather simple repair.
We had a good conversation, he stated that he was very happy with the car, the engine, and he still thinks that we are the best and we know what we are doing - straight from the customers mouth. Julian claims that if we are so professional how did we miss the oil squirters hitting the pistons. The oil squirters were not discovered during assembly because if they did make contact you cannot miss it or over look it. The pistons obviously expanded, and most likely under high rpm loads, broke the oil squirters. This is a defect in the piston manufacturing and as we have stated time after time we will take full responsibility for the problem, but can't fix anything if Julian won't communicate or work with us in this matter.
Now Julian, you want us to pay you $3,200 for doing nothing? since the customer told us the oil squirters have still not been fixed, who is using smoke and mirrors now?
Made good power for having broken oil squirters: http://my350z.com/forum/shop-builds/...ne-merlot.html
Engine#3 - r0mey
This has got to be the biggest let down and disappointment out of all the cases. MRC bought an engine for romey back around 7/2007, it was installed and tuned by MRC. MRC posted the happy results as usual (http://my350z.com/forum/shop-builds/...built-day.html) I have always been in communication with romey and everything was always running great, not even one single complaint/issue. The car was driven for 8,000 miles like this making over 550rwhp DD, until Julian decided to retune the car for meth injection and to make big numbers to demonstrate his abilities. During tuning the car lifted the head. The question is how an improper machines/built engine last 8,000 hard driven miles, and then magically fail when it is being tuned. There is only one variable that changed here, and that variable is the tune.
I received a threating PM from Julian, I replied simply saying we should set up a conference call between the 3 of us. He stated that the engine had suffered from headlift, I told him to let me have the engine I will replace the head gasket, double check it, and send it back to him in less than a weeks time. At that point I had no idea the amount of damage this engine had incurred.
We received the engine preformed our own tear down inspection, one piston was severely damaged due to excessive heat in that cylinder, the engine has been overheated on one bank only, we had sent the piston to Arias for inspection, and the report from Arias stated that the piston was showing early signs of detonation. The snout of the crank shaft on the key was damaged and turned blue from leaving the harmonic balancer loose. Also we found abnormal wear on one camshaft which appeared to be a manufacturing defect. To this day we had never denied warranty on this camshaft, this is the only case that ever surfaced.
It was our conclusion that after this engine had been driven for 8,000 miles, and failing in the process of a tuning session, that this is not something we should be responsible for. I told romey I would help him out and I will take care of it, I kept my word and sent him a complete fresh engine, brand new pistons, and bearings for no charge. The only thing romey paid for was the following:
Camshaft upgrade from Stage1 to Stage 2
Camshaft clearancing and adjustments
Headgaskets
Upgraded Lifters
ECU Flash
Crankshaft
The reason romey had to pay for new camshafts was because he upgraded from stage 1 to stage 2, if he had stuck with stage 1 cams, we would have warrantied the ONE cam that was defective and he would have had no out of pocket expense as far as the camshafts go. I said the following, I will take care of the shortblock as I promised, but you will have to pay for the cam upgrade, the flash, and I am not going to pay for MRC's incompetence of damaging the crank. Once the metal is over heated to the point where is becomes blue, the integrity of the crank is comprised and we did not feel comfortable re-using it.
At no point did romey have any objection at what he was being charged for. We shipped the engine thinking it would be installed ASAP, but the engine sat there for about a month before they began the installation. I must have called romey at least twice a week making sure everything is ok. Just to clarify we shipped the block and heads, not an assembled longblock. When the engine was installed, I receive a phone call from romey and matt stating that the engine does not seem to be running on one bank, meaning only half the engine was working. I asked him if he had any codes, matt stated there were no codes.
Next conversation we had is between romey, me, and julian on 3 way, were Julian stated that the engine had misfire codes on only one bank. So it went from running on one bank only, with no CEL, to CEL with codes on only one bank, to engine didn't fire on start up. So many inconsistencies. I suggested that we send the car to a 3rd party out of state and I would pay for the transport so we may get an unbiased opinion. Romey came back and picked a local shop he wanted to do the 3rd part inspection and we agreed. We are still waiting on this report, it has been about a week and are responding sooner than anticipated due to all the comments from MRC.
Even after taking care of an engine that was damaged due to improper tuning and negligence we have suffered a charge back on romeys engine.
We will respond with further comments once the 3rd parts inspection is complete.
Engine #4 - Dougs engine.
This is the only other engine we have sold Julian, do not know where he got 6, it has only been 4. We have never heard anything negative of dougs engine that was on our end, from doug or julian.
We have no problem taking care of problems that may arise that are our fault, we are all human, and we all have good and bad days. If something comes up that is our fault we take care of it as much as any other reputable business in the high performance industry.
SAM
GT MOTORSPORTS
Last edited by SAM@GTM; Oct 26, 2008 at 08:44 PM.
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Originally Posted by Julian
I have the actual inspection report if anyone cares to view i need someone to host it, its 393 KB....i honestly do not know how much more factual information we have to provide to get Sam to admit he F'd up. also we got back a preliminary on Romes new motor, and despite Sams suggestion that we mistimed the cams, the engine and cam timing was 100% correct. Ball is in Sams court now, since all we did to that motor was time it and put the cover on...FYI that motor was NOT tuned, only started up.
Ball is in Sams court now, since all we did to that motor was time it and put the cover on...FYI that motor was NOT tuned, only started up.Thanks,
Mike
Originally Posted by Sbeck
By the way, i think Sam wins this one. His facts are more than enough to rectify the fact that GTM is not at fault.
Originally Posted by manbeer
But they are not FACTS. As the saying goes, one picture is worth a thousand words. Not taking sides, but aside from a bunch of accusations and he-said, she said, the only real FACTS were documented in the report and by the photographs provided.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 112
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From: Phoenix, AZ
How do you explain the other findings in the report? Maybe I missed it in his long posts, but I didn't see Sam address these specific issues listed in this 3rd party report by Diamond Motors:
http://www.kptechnologies.com/g35dri...Cblueprint.doc
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Notes: notice of visual grooves on main and rod journals. Pictures shown below.
Probable Cause: improper environment of engine assembly and/or dirty bearing surfaces at time of assembly, as well as contamination or debris in and around oil galleys. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Notes: Inner diameter of mains were found to be as tight as -.0010, which is out of factory specifications which show they are on the tight side.<O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]</O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]
<O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]></O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]>
Probable Cause: Aftermarket hardware for the mains were found to be used without performing an (align hone), which may have been the cause of the ID to be incorrect. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Notes: Excessive wear on cylinder walls, on cylinders 1,3 and 5. Piston to wall show an average of .0074+, on all cylinders. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Notes: Engine reportedly had about 2000 miles , and research show a history of abnormal running conditions. <O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]></O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]>
<O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]></O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]>
<O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]></O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]>
Probable Cause of Engine Failure: <O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]></O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]>
1) Improper ring end gaps of top and 2<SUP>nd</SUP> rings.<O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]></O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]>
2) Excessive piston to cylinder wall clearance <O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]></O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]>
3) Excessive blow by and oil consumption<O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]></O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Now granted... I'm no mechanic or expert in engine building, but I'm confused as to how the above things listed in the report could be caused by a bad tune. Please explain.<!-- google_ad_section_end --> <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
http://www.kptechnologies.com/g35dri...Cblueprint.doc
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Notes: notice of visual grooves on main and rod journals. Pictures shown below.
Probable Cause: improper environment of engine assembly and/or dirty bearing surfaces at time of assembly, as well as contamination or debris in and around oil galleys. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Notes: Inner diameter of mains were found to be as tight as -.0010, which is out of factory specifications which show they are on the tight side.<O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]</O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]
<O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]></O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]>
Probable Cause: Aftermarket hardware for the mains were found to be used without performing an (align hone), which may have been the cause of the ID to be incorrect. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Notes: Excessive wear on cylinder walls, on cylinders 1,3 and 5. Piston to wall show an average of .0074+, on all cylinders. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Notes: Engine reportedly had about 2000 miles , and research show a history of abnormal running conditions. <O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]></O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]>
<O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]></O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]>
<O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]></O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]>
Probable Cause of Engine Failure: <O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]></O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]>
1) Improper ring end gaps of top and 2<SUP>nd</SUP> rings.<O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]></O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]>
2) Excessive piston to cylinder wall clearance <O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]></O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]>
3) Excessive blow by and oil consumption<O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]></O[IMG]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Now granted... I'm no mechanic or expert in engine building, but I'm confused as to how the above things listed in the report could be caused by a bad tune. Please explain.<!-- google_ad_section_end --> <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 112
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From: Phoenix, AZ
I just reread both of Sam's posts. While a saw a long winded character assassination of Julian and GTM's version of the history of events, I did not see any mention or explanation for the findings listed in the 3rd party report (which I quoted above).
We all know that Julian is a hot head and isn't well liked by many here. We know he would never win an award here on the forums for Mr. Congeniality. And many of you may disagree and disapprove of how Julian has handled this situation with the motors in question thus far, including him creating the thread about the entire matter. OK, fine.
However, I have yet to see GTM directly address or explain the findings listed in that report by Diamond Motors indicating a faulty motor build/assembly.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
We all know that Julian is a hot head and isn't well liked by many here. We know he would never win an award here on the forums for Mr. Congeniality. And many of you may disagree and disapprove of how Julian has handled this situation with the motors in question thus far, including him creating the thread about the entire matter. OK, fine.
However, I have yet to see GTM directly address or explain the findings listed in that report by Diamond Motors indicating a faulty motor build/assembly.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
so from all that is posted.....not the only question i have but this is one
so basically your gtm stg1 cam failed (you havent admited its your fault yet or its even a possibility that there is a manufacturing error yet)... because rome, willingly (acording to how you make it sound) upgraded to gtm stg2 he had to pay for the cams?.....now you arent saying it, but are you implying that you hooked up rome in anyway for the stg2 cams?
How much are gtm stg1s? i imagine you at least gave him credit for the cost of them right?
IMO if you were to make things right he should have had to pay nothing for the stg2s...(for example if stg1 cost 1000 and stg2 1300 at max hed had to pay 300)
Originally Posted by sam@gtm
The reason romey had to pay for new camshafts was because he upgraded from stage 1 to stage 2, if he had stuck with stage 1 cams, we would have warrantied the ONE cam that was defective and he would have had no out of pocket expense as far as the camshafts go.
How much are gtm stg1s? i imagine you at least gave him credit for the cost of them right?
IMO if you were to make things right he should have had to pay nothing for the stg2s...(for example if stg1 cost 1000 and stg2 1300 at max hed had to pay 300)
Originally Posted by RudeG_v2.0
I just reread both of Sam's posts. While a saw a long winded character assassination of Julian and GTM's version of the history of events, I did not see any mention or explanation for the findings listed in the 3rd party report (which I quoted above).
We all know that Julian is a hot head and isn't well liked by many here. We know he would never win an award here on the forums for Mr. Congeniality. And many of you may disagree and disapprove of how Julian has handled this situation with the motors in question thus far, including him creating the thread about the entire matter. OK, fine.
However, I have yet to see GTM directly address or explain the findings listed in that report by Diamond Motors indicating a faulty motor build/assembly.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
We all know that Julian is a hot head and isn't well liked by many here. We know he would never win an award here on the forums for Mr. Congeniality. And many of you may disagree and disapprove of how Julian has handled this situation with the motors in question thus far, including him creating the thread about the entire matter. OK, fine.
However, I have yet to see GTM directly address or explain the findings listed in that report by Diamond Motors indicating a faulty motor build/assembly.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
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I really did not want to get involved in this since my car is running fine (knock on wood) with the exception on the oil squirters but I will say this hoping not to sound to much of an MRC FANBOY, Julian is one of the most stand up guys I've ever met now granted I have been a good customer of his for a long time but it goes way beyond that! anything I have needed not just for the Z but anything he has always been there for me and my family. I really believe this! if there was something that was Julian's fault he will take 100 % responsibility.Now I did speak to Sam last night and yes it was a good conversation I think Sam will also take responsibility if it comes back that it was on GTM's end.We all need to relax and let the situation work its self out! I described the situation to Rome awhile back its like a big $hit sandwich and everybody needs to take a bite GTM, MRC and especially Rome because he the one without his Z going on 6 months
Last edited by ttrank; Oct 27, 2008 at 02:38 PM. Reason: removed very long quote