I won't belittle anyone. Period. Take a look at the shots I receive from a few choice members in this Org and how I react to them. I might make them look a little silly, but that's it

 

DaveB
You make some valid points on most of your post's
But it gets old hearing about your car and what works and 'of course what doesn't
If nobody took a risk nothing would ever get done. Its that simple.
My guess is you need to figure out what is going on in your car and not mine.
Maybe you need to go back and check your cam timing. I will check my own, Thank you.
Its your car not mine. This forum is about sharing Ideas and learning about it.
I do not claim to know every thing, Nor know it all. But at the same time I have learned who to ask the right question's. I have no doubt your car has the capacity to run in the 13 teens.
You figure it out. Have you ever thought about asking somebody? I have posted many times in your behalf. What ever, Your to proud to ask a question? Dave? Have you ever wondered that somebody out there at that moment in time might have the right onset? You have a belittling way about you. You can read your books, And quotes. After losing more races than I won, I became a winner, Just because. I won more than them. Its time to share Idea's not lifestyle's. Your a good poster. Pasta

 

That would be debatable at best and I think you have yet again proved part of my point.

 

Jesus.

I disagree with a lot of the things DaveB posts (especially in regards to underdrive pulleys on the VQ35) and yet I manage to respect him and the points he makes. Some of you people (and I use "you people" in the most derogatory way possible) have no concept of other idea than your own, judging by how you attack DaveB whenever he questions the data or results. Others manage to make polite intelligent posts, that may dispute what DaveB says, why can't you?

And by "you", I mean whoever this applies to. If you think that you are able to hold an intelligent debate, than this does not apply to you. On the other hand, if all you can do is insult DaveB while attacking him, then don't bother.

Dave (a different Dave)

 

I hate the underdrive pulleys, your right about DaveB.

 

This is going to be long, as is stypical for me. If you don't like it, skip it.

I've stayed out of the DaveB/Not DaveB posts for as long as I could stand it. But I have to say, that I think some people act pretty childish.

I work as a computer programmer. On a daily basis, I work with *other* computer programmers. For those of you that haven't dealt with people like us, we're collectively a bunch of egotistical primadonas. We always thing we are right. And anytime we get into a technical discussion, arguments always ensue. Some programmers, the more arrogant amongst us, get all pissy and automatically create preconceptions about people with whom they disagree, and largely discredit any further opinions from those others, regardless of technical merit. The programmers that become successful however, learn that challenging others, and in turn being challenged, results in greater dialog and often better technical solutions. So, ultimately we all either learn to leave our egos at the door, or we're in a constant state of "pissihood."

I think my experiences can be applied here. There are plenty of technical people that often form up "battle lines" on any given mod or technical issue. That's fine. But the antagonism need not extend to individuals.

Another trend that I've noticed is that once someone makes a questionable statement or opinion, all his future posts are then assumed to be questionable as well. Let me provide an anecdote to illustrate. My parents divorced when I was younger, and my mother remarried; thus, I had both my father and my step-father to consult with various questions. One time I was discussing with my stepdad the concept of the rotary(I was about 12 at the time). He looked at me and said "I don't understand why anyone would ever put a rotary motor in a sports car; it's just a big gyroscope and it would hurt handling and performance." You know, if someone said that on this board they would be flamed and never be taken seriously again. However, my stepdad is one of the smartest guys I know, and that statement does not disqualify any of his other opinions. As a matter of fact, I would have no problem with letting him teardown my tranny, or provide inputs on various mods. But one thing that I have learned is to ask my stepdad questions, my dad the same questions, and filter out their responses to come up with my own opinion.

DaveB is an engineer. A lot of people that get in on these discussions are engineers. We may not all be in the same specific field, but we all have in common some analytical ability. We may be presented with facts, figures, and empirical results of various test/experiments, but each of us will arrive at a different conclusion. Some of us will be right, and others not. So what's the big deal?

DaveB and I had a minor disagreement recently on a thread about my 1/4 mile times. He suggested that the lower temps were the primary factor that attributed to my shaving off 3 tenths from my previous best. He and I went back and forth a couple of times, but I believe in the end he agreed with me that the lower conditions played a marginal role at best. It was an open, peer-to-peer discussion that never got nasty. Why can't others do this?

I don't always agree with DaveB. Hell, I speak to some of you privately or on the phone on a regular basis, and I don't always agree with you guys either(Except for my wife; I *always* agree with my wife in the end ). Don't take offense. I don't think I'm smarter than anyone. I just seek your opinions, then filter those opinions against my own reading and research, and ultimately I arrive at my own conclusions. In the end, I'll make some mistakes, but I learn from my mistakes.

I gather there's been some extra-public forum behavior that has occurred in the past amongst some of the people here that harbor bad blood, and as a result, there's some baggage. I suggest that each of you examine this baggage and determine if you are capable of behaving in a more objective manner.

 

Next, I'd like to address DaveB.

Your role of eternal questioner is valuable. However, at some point, you can't protect everyone else. I won't dispute that most people aren't "car guys", but they've got to learn. Let them learn on their own.

Next, I believe the previous topic on this thread was the iso kit, or thermal isolation in general. In attempt to get back to topic, I've got a question for you.

You assert that any temp savings are marginal. I believe you argue that the engine compartment contains such ambient temperatures that heatsoke will occur no matter what, and as a result and intake charge savings are nullified. Is my understanding correct?

In the thread about the HKS intake, I believe you state that the metal intakes will have quite a bit of heatsoke, raising the intake charge.

I'm confused. These two statements seem at odds. Can you explain why one would prefer an intake that conducted less heat in the latter scenario, but not want the observed temp savings from the first scenario?

 

I just wanted to post my impressions of the MREV on my 350z.

Now I decided to do the install myself and was very frustrated going back and forth to the store until I found the right dang sockets. Installation took me probably a good four hours but that's because I went very slow and made sure everything was perfect.

Driving impressions are it pulls alot harder from 3k up to 6.7k. I don't really notice any difference in sound and now with the MREV it's too easy to spin my tires in 1st and 2nd gear. The amazing thing about the MREV is how it keeps the plenum cold. I put two Aramid gaskets in there. When I went and drive it very hard for 25 min and came back I could put my hand on the plenum and it was barely warm.

I raced a buddies stock 350z and I had a full car length on him twice from 40-100. Keep in mind that he is a much more skilled driver than me because I only have 1 month of experience driving manual to his 3+ yrs.

Also previous to my MREV mod I race a modified g35.with an Injen Intake, Stillen Exhaust and Nismo Flywheel.

We did 3 runs from a stop:

First run I won because he said he missed second.

Second run he had my by a car length but I had a terrible launch

3rd run he had me by about half a car length

Then we did 2 runs from a 20mph roll:

On both runs the results were both the same, I beat him by half a car length.

So hopefully today I'll see if he wants to race again and see what the results are with the MREV.

 

Diesel350,

I am pleased to read of your MREV experience and success of installing the same. Enjoy your new mod and be careful out there.

 

Exactly. Why does everyone have to take everything so personally? It's very clear that my opinions and experiences don't reflect the accepted norm of site, but why do people have to get so pissy when someone posts from "the other side".

Like Trey said, I work with a bunch of engineers and we all have our disagreements and debates, but it's always civil and never personal. If we took things personally and as attacks, we could never offer any sort of product to our client. In our opinions, the more ideas and sides to the story, the better.

 

True. I just hate seeing people wasting hundreds and thousands of dollars on parts that don't perform as advertized. I fell victim to that very thing on numerous occassions simply because I hadn't researched the product, or believed the hype, or simply didn't know better.

The problem with these metal pipe intake kits is that the air temp sensor is one of many wire elements in the MAF. Since the MAF bolts into this metal pipe, the heat soak can dramatically impact the temp sensor readings. A heated intake pipe can basically give false ambient air temp readings. I don't know if you've ever had experience with a metal intake pipe, but those things get blistering hot and I'd say more so than the intake manifold. If the intake pipe is 140 degrees, you can be pretty certain the temp sensor is seeing 130 degrees+ even though ambient temps might only be in the 80s. The heat issue is only compounded by the open underhood intake which is sucking in hot engine bay air, especially at speeds below 40mph. With the plastic MAF and intake tract in place, the intake temps will be significantly lower and much closer to ambient.

If engineers felt that a hot intake manifold dramatically impacted engine performance, they would put the temp sensor inside the intake manifold. However, nearly every late model car reads intake temps within MAF sensor or airbox because they understand that there is very little temperature variation as the air travels from the MAF through the intake manifold and ultimately the combustion chamber.

 

If heatsoke due to metal intake piping is an issue, then let's go the other way. Several people have thermowrapped(or whatever verb you choose) their plastic, or CF ztubes. We can argue all day long on the degree of effectiveness offered by doing so, but in principal do you think this makes sense? I personally do. Plus, most of the people that have done this mod have done so with cheap parts available from mass-retail outles such as Home Depot.

 

Been there and tried that on a couple cars with plastic and metal aftermarket intakes. The pipe still gets hot if you feel inside of it. Not only that, it junks up the look of the engine bay. I think the whole idea stemmed from the heat jackets used on turbo housings and headers. The heat jackets are effective, but the purpose is entirely different. The goal is to keep the heat in because heat will increase exhaust velocity. It will also keep underhood temps down. The home insulation wrap these guys use isn't really redesigned to shield from external radient heat. It's to keep a home air duct well insulated during the cold months.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not debating the fact that reducing intake temps is a good thing. It's just my opinion that the many of these mods aren't going to improve performance near as much as many think. Most of these mods we discussed do work, but to the degree and effectiveness at which they work is debatable.

 

It should have been fairly easy to calculate the relative increase in power from the different conditions and integrate that over the 1/4 mile to see its approximate effect to first order. Not too much of an argument there. :P

- another engineer that will adding quite a bit of fuel to all future fires

 

Here is my dyno from a 350Z.

This was done in 4th gear.

Gains are pretty consistent with the other dyno's.

http://img476.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dyno22eb.jpg


http://img279.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dyno30cx.jpg