FI: we're not in Kansas anymore...
I think it is time to set some goals, before you start throwing parts at it decide on what you want out of it and stick to it. I always bought more/better than I needed to avoid growing out of them however i never had a goal and that is one of the reasons i got carried away and crushed anything that resembled a budget. I would go with the new 300lph drop in pump over a Twin pump set up and I guess injector size would depend on goals, it might be time to consider water/meth injection, as well as other things like, oil cooler and larger rad.
I still hold that for now. Let's not get carried away now.
Sounds like a good build. But I would look it a short block already built like others have mentioned.
Sounds like a good build. But I would look it a short block already built like others have mentioned.
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,282
Likes: 219
From: Alberta
Okay- I'd settle for most powerful LR G35 AT in Canada I suppose. That sounds like a reasonable goal to me.
There HAS to be a catch on this built block? And even then most of my cost isn't even to do with the engine side of things- a ton of it is coming from the tanny, a little bit from the boosted up fuel pump, the boost controller (now that I understand the benefit)... an upgrade to the MAF as indicated...
I'm going to stick the path with the way its going now- I'm going to pass on the link for thoughts and see how they feel about it but quite frankly I'm happy with what's been proposed and where the money is being spent. I don't like that I've bought the car twice at the end of this... but- then again I don't like my double chin either.
Maybe I should have spent some of this money correcting that problem...
There HAS to be a catch on this built block? And even then most of my cost isn't even to do with the engine side of things- a ton of it is coming from the tanny, a little bit from the boosted up fuel pump, the boost controller (now that I understand the benefit)... an upgrade to the MAF as indicated...
I'm going to stick the path with the way its going now- I'm going to pass on the link for thoughts and see how they feel about it but quite frankly I'm happy with what's been proposed and where the money is being spent. I don't like that I've bought the car twice at the end of this... but- then again I don't like my double chin either.
Maybe I should have spent some of this money correcting that problem...
I would strongly advise getting a block that is built from a reputable shop. The VQ block is very finicky when it comes to bearing clearances and assembly. Getting some shop that has never seen the VQ block to machine it and assemble it is asking for trouble.
I have customers that were down at Dynosty, in the "engine room". They tell me (just out of the blue) that they have never seen a room that clean in their life. This is a very good reason for me to buy my short block from them, and recommend them to others. Not to mention the reputation they have with these blocks.
What did the local shop quote you for a built short block with machine work, parts and assembly? (if you don’t mind sharing)
I have customers that were down at Dynosty, in the "engine room". They tell me (just out of the blue) that they have never seen a room that clean in their life. This is a very good reason for me to buy my short block from them, and recommend them to others. Not to mention the reputation they have with these blocks.
What did the local shop quote you for a built short block with machine work, parts and assembly? (if you don’t mind sharing)
Curiosity question: Sasha, have you done an AT fitment yet? Seems like there might be clearance issues with the mid-mount turbo...? I'm not asking for me, I'm just asking.
Eno, as you can see, I've moved your thread, I agree it's good info and deserves a wider audience.
Eno, as you can see, I've moved your thread, I agree it's good info and deserves a wider audience.
Curiosity question: Sasha, have you done an AT fitment yet? Seems like there might be clearance issues with the mid-mount turbo...? I'm not asking for me, I'm just asking.
Eno, as you can see, I've moved your thread, I agree it's good info and deserves a wider audience.
Eno, as you can see, I've moved your thread, I agree it's good info and deserves a wider audience.
Same goes for the HR crowd...Alberta and sports car performance do not mix. If I was selling lift kits to the riggers, then I would be well off.
1. I run 2 degrees colder NGK iridiums at the stock gap (.044 I believe). I've run 1 degree colder also without issue. In fact, you are not supposed to regap iridium plugs.
2. Fittings contracting? You mean brass in aluminum? That sounds like BS since all fittings are for the most part brass or zinc coated brass.
3. The oil lines for the turbos should be -4an. That is stock JWT hard lines (brake line) size. In addition there should be a 0.05" restrictor feeding the line from the oil pressure sensor port on the passenger side of the upper oil pan. I doubt you were underfeeding BB turbos.
4. A vacuum distribution block is the way to go. I use one for all my lines except the MAP sensor gets a direct short feed from the throttle body. And your wastegates should see boost only, not vacuum, so draw a feed for those from the compressor outlet (the JWT kit provides nipples on the compressor outlet pipes for this purpose).
5-6. The important part is heat wrapping anything near the manifolds or turbos.
7. Cooling is important. Get high performance SPAL fans with a shroud and DIF brand PWM universal twin fan controller.
8. Tuning with Osiris is tricky and requires that timing be reset to low teens at peak torque in both the normal and the knock detected timing tables. Tuning on higher octane fuel would've been prudent if they'd never tuned a FI Z/G before. There should not have been any signs of detonation on the plugs - this is a big red flag that your tuner FAILED you - not the other way around.
9. Wastegates on the 700bb kit is about 9.3 psi without cats and 8 psi with cats and/or a restrictive/stock exhaust. It's at the limit of the stock motor torque handling capacity but your tuner should've ensured you had cats on, kept boost under 9 psi, and retarded timing to keep wtq low.
You may have found good people, but I am worried about your experience to date. Good luck.
2. Fittings contracting? You mean brass in aluminum? That sounds like BS since all fittings are for the most part brass or zinc coated brass.
3. The oil lines for the turbos should be -4an. That is stock JWT hard lines (brake line) size. In addition there should be a 0.05" restrictor feeding the line from the oil pressure sensor port on the passenger side of the upper oil pan. I doubt you were underfeeding BB turbos.
4. A vacuum distribution block is the way to go. I use one for all my lines except the MAP sensor gets a direct short feed from the throttle body. And your wastegates should see boost only, not vacuum, so draw a feed for those from the compressor outlet (the JWT kit provides nipples on the compressor outlet pipes for this purpose).
5-6. The important part is heat wrapping anything near the manifolds or turbos.
7. Cooling is important. Get high performance SPAL fans with a shroud and DIF brand PWM universal twin fan controller.
8. Tuning with Osiris is tricky and requires that timing be reset to low teens at peak torque in both the normal and the knock detected timing tables. Tuning on higher octane fuel would've been prudent if they'd never tuned a FI Z/G before. There should not have been any signs of detonation on the plugs - this is a big red flag that your tuner FAILED you - not the other way around.
9. Wastegates on the 700bb kit is about 9.3 psi without cats and 8 psi with cats and/or a restrictive/stock exhaust. It's at the limit of the stock motor torque handling capacity but your tuner should've ensured you had cats on, kept boost under 9 psi, and retarded timing to keep wtq low.
You may have found good people, but I am worried about your experience to date. Good luck.
Okay... so a couple of things weren't quite right with the build- not outright wrong, but not quite dialed in. Which is fine- everyone has their experiences.
The few things that I remember were in need of adjustment:
1) Spark plugs. Apparently plugs are rated for heat- the lower the number, the hotter the plug. It was explained to me that with the FI builds a cooler plug is better. I think they said that the stock plugs are typically a 6, and the plugs that were in my car were a 5... or if stock was 5 mine were a 4... can't remember offhand- but it was a hotter plug and that wasn't good. The gap on them was also "waaay" off- I think they said gap was supposed to be about 28 and it was almost 40... One of the plugs was showing signs of detonation. They were replaced with a greddy 9 plug.
2) Some of the fittings were inconsistent with the way they would expand and contract when heated. It was pointed out to me, and now that we're tearing it apart little things like that will get touched up and fixed.
3) The oil lines were too small for those turbos. I guess this is partly a product of Progressive working more on European cars- apparently those that are included won't provide enough flow.
4) The vaccume lines were apparently all tied in to one spot as opposed to being bored into the plenum separately and secured like that. This one was one I didn't quite get my head around- but I saw it on Seymore's engine and I think his vaccume lines basically went in separately on the passenger side as opposed to just that one little spigot at the front.
5) The tech doing most of the work has a stereo background so he had a few remarks about how he might have tidied a couple things up a little but overall he was impressed with the quality of the workmanship. When one of the other guys heard him say that, they said to me afterwards "If Mike says that then they did a pretty good job."
6) There was already some rubbing going on with some of the closer fitting parts- particularly under the air filter- back a bit between one of the... um... stainless air lines and a bracket mount for something.
7) The stock fan really, REALLY cramped up the... "charge tube?" and I noticed it had to be shaved back a bit for proper fit. I'm going to go with 2 smaller profile fans that open up some room there and are more efficient. Now is a good time to just get that over with.
8) We originally had some trouble logging into the ECU because of the COBB. Funny, because I was unloading the boxes from the original install the morning I left for Seattle and I thought to myself "hmmm, I'm just going to bring this down with me" for no reason whatsoever. Anyway, I was under the impression when Progressive said they had loaded the stock map and unloaded the Cobb that they had reflashed the ECU to stock. When they were trying to get into it with the Osiris software it was locked out. I am glad I brought the Cobb out with me- as we were able to reflash and uninstall the Cobb completely- allowing for the tune to continue. Then again... I remember joking that may have been a good thing- but I didn't mean it. Getting these components built up is what the car and the kit needs. I'm comfortable with it and I'm happy for the oppotunity.
9) I'm not sure what's up with the wastegates... but whatever they were set at was probably too high. Now, we'll not have the issue.
It took me a bit longer to get down to Kent than I expected. I crossed the border at the busy place instead of the quiet place (Peace Arch instead of Pacific X) but the drive was okay. I didn't arrive until 2:30 or so, at which point they got to work on the build about 3:30 after some visiting. They checked the plugs as they did the injectors and upgraded those to the Deatchwerks 600s. They swapped out the plugs and then rebuilt the plenum and the rest to get it ready for the tune. We had a break for lunch and supper and the tune started around 8. It was cool because a bunch of guys stayed late to work on their own projects and an engine swap on another car... music was up, folks were dropping in... pretty cool atmosphere.
When things went south, the car dropped HP and torque simultaneously- but then resumed a trend generally upwards before everything was powered down. It happened pretty fast so I'm not saying they tried to push through the drop... everything happened all at once. Looking at the fuel ratio it was sitting level throughout- where it was supposed to be. The noise that followed starting the car after was kind of a... rough idling noise- almost like a diesel... near the front driver side of the engine- the it sounded higher up... it was tough to tell.
They went after the plugs and scoped the cylinders but everything was fine there... there was no residue or signs of damage. There was some thoughts it was one of the turbo shafts... but they eventually agreed amongst the extended community that it was either a bearing or a rod...
So anyway, that's where we're at.
The few things that I remember were in need of adjustment:
1) Spark plugs. Apparently plugs are rated for heat- the lower the number, the hotter the plug. It was explained to me that with the FI builds a cooler plug is better. I think they said that the stock plugs are typically a 6, and the plugs that were in my car were a 5... or if stock was 5 mine were a 4... can't remember offhand- but it was a hotter plug and that wasn't good. The gap on them was also "waaay" off- I think they said gap was supposed to be about 28 and it was almost 40... One of the plugs was showing signs of detonation. They were replaced with a greddy 9 plug.
2) Some of the fittings were inconsistent with the way they would expand and contract when heated. It was pointed out to me, and now that we're tearing it apart little things like that will get touched up and fixed.
3) The oil lines were too small for those turbos. I guess this is partly a product of Progressive working more on European cars- apparently those that are included won't provide enough flow.
4) The vaccume lines were apparently all tied in to one spot as opposed to being bored into the plenum separately and secured like that. This one was one I didn't quite get my head around- but I saw it on Seymore's engine and I think his vaccume lines basically went in separately on the passenger side as opposed to just that one little spigot at the front.
5) The tech doing most of the work has a stereo background so he had a few remarks about how he might have tidied a couple things up a little but overall he was impressed with the quality of the workmanship. When one of the other guys heard him say that, they said to me afterwards "If Mike says that then they did a pretty good job."
6) There was already some rubbing going on with some of the closer fitting parts- particularly under the air filter- back a bit between one of the... um... stainless air lines and a bracket mount for something.
7) The stock fan really, REALLY cramped up the... "charge tube?" and I noticed it had to be shaved back a bit for proper fit. I'm going to go with 2 smaller profile fans that open up some room there and are more efficient. Now is a good time to just get that over with.
8) We originally had some trouble logging into the ECU because of the COBB. Funny, because I was unloading the boxes from the original install the morning I left for Seattle and I thought to myself "hmmm, I'm just going to bring this down with me" for no reason whatsoever. Anyway, I was under the impression when Progressive said they had loaded the stock map and unloaded the Cobb that they had reflashed the ECU to stock. When they were trying to get into it with the Osiris software it was locked out. I am glad I brought the Cobb out with me- as we were able to reflash and uninstall the Cobb completely- allowing for the tune to continue. Then again... I remember joking that may have been a good thing- but I didn't mean it. Getting these components built up is what the car and the kit needs. I'm comfortable with it and I'm happy for the oppotunity.
9) I'm not sure what's up with the wastegates... but whatever they were set at was probably too high. Now, we'll not have the issue.
It took me a bit longer to get down to Kent than I expected. I crossed the border at the busy place instead of the quiet place (Peace Arch instead of Pacific X) but the drive was okay. I didn't arrive until 2:30 or so, at which point they got to work on the build about 3:30 after some visiting. They checked the plugs as they did the injectors and upgraded those to the Deatchwerks 600s. They swapped out the plugs and then rebuilt the plenum and the rest to get it ready for the tune. We had a break for lunch and supper and the tune started around 8. It was cool because a bunch of guys stayed late to work on their own projects and an engine swap on another car... music was up, folks were dropping in... pretty cool atmosphere.
When things went south, the car dropped HP and torque simultaneously- but then resumed a trend generally upwards before everything was powered down. It happened pretty fast so I'm not saying they tried to push through the drop... everything happened all at once. Looking at the fuel ratio it was sitting level throughout- where it was supposed to be. The noise that followed starting the car after was kind of a... rough idling noise- almost like a diesel... near the front driver side of the engine- the it sounded higher up... it was tough to tell.
They went after the plugs and scoped the cylinders but everything was fine there... there was no residue or signs of damage. There was some thoughts it was one of the turbo shafts... but they eventually agreed amongst the extended community that it was either a bearing or a rod...
So anyway, that's where we're at.
Last edited by rcdash; Apr 3, 2011 at 09:15 PM.
Sounds like somebody fubard up big time. There is no way a rod should bend at that power level that quick..it's just not going to happen. This to me smells like a horrible tune in the timing tables. I would love to see what the timing was when this happened. Look at how much tq Gord ran on his stock rods for an entire summer. The transmission has nothing to do with strain, it is just an excuse. What EMS did you end up going with?
I have over 40 passes at the drag strip on a stock block, and that is harder on everything than any street driving you can do. Dustin has been beating on his stock block for a few years now as well, and it's still going strong.
I have over 40 passes at the drag strip on a stock block, and that is harder on everything than any street driving you can do. Dustin has been beating on his stock block for a few years now as well, and it's still going strong.
I highly recommend you consider shipping the car to a shop like Dynosty and let them take care of everything for you. Regardless of what you have spent to date, in the long run you will spend less if you follow this advice.
Last edited by rcdash; Apr 3, 2011 at 09:18 PM.
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,282
Likes: 219
From: Alberta
Keep in mind- the detonation was happening before the plugs were swapped and the tuning done. We're thinking the detonation from when I had bought the car until the plugs were swapped contributed to the premature wear of the part that eventually failed- still not sure what that is. The teardown will start Tuesday- had a couple bills to pay first.
Obviously all good pointers RC and I thank you for contributing to the thread!
Obviously all good pointers RC and I thank you for contributing to the thread!
Ok - it's your money man. The fact is the car was making power on the dyno and then something happened - ON THE DYNO. Any other story is smoke and mirrors to shift the blame. But that is the past. Now consider the future. Is this local shop experienced with VQ motors? If this new motor fails, you should know in advance exactly what you will be responsible for. A shop like Dynosty will stand behind their work. Other shops will just say that's part of the game - and you gotta pay to play. Ask the shop owner in advance in writing (email) what happens if something goes wrong. You have until Tuesday to make the right decision I guess (3rd party analysis and then send to an experienced VQ engine builder!) 
Last edited by rcdash; Apr 3, 2011 at 11:32 PM.
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,282
Likes: 219
From: Alberta
The shop has taken responsibility where they could and have stepped up with deeply reduced labour rates across the board... If it wasn't for that I'd be screwed so I trust that they will stand by their work. The parts are all good quality and I'm confident in their judgment in the shop they're choosing to do the work. Evidently one with which they have a good relationship.
With that being said, this is a dynamite deal from Dynosty too- and I'm sure it will be given serious consideration one way or the other.
As for what happens when something goes wrong- I'm finding out first hand but yes I know that good paper makes good friends too. It'll be something worth sorting out- that's for sure... especially with me being up north and them being... well... down south.
So far as I know right now- Tuesday is tear down day so we'll see what happened.
With that being said, this is a dynamite deal from Dynosty too- and I'm sure it will be given serious consideration one way or the other.
As for what happens when something goes wrong- I'm finding out first hand but yes I know that good paper makes good friends too. It'll be something worth sorting out- that's for sure... especially with me being up north and them being... well... down south.
So far as I know right now- Tuesday is tear down day so we'll see what happened.
